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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Has there been an explanation why? (Just curious.)
    We will see with Evan because he was killed in age of X-man. The dawn of X-men preview pic had him as a member. If you see him again it is because Krakoa brought him back.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But again, we're ignoring that no soul was really "split" between the "originals" and their clones.

    And even with Ben Reiley, he is, again, treated as his own person.

    And again, we know that souls exist in the MU. That isn't a question.

    And frankly, taking souls out of the process isn't a bad idea from a practical point of view. Souls are tricky and they can be damaged or you could bring something else back when you use them.

    There's also the very real fact that using these back-up copies give Xavier even more control of the process. He can change things about the person if h wants.
    While Ben Reilly does have his own soul we also have confirmation from Death that when the Jackal cloned him after his death that Ben's soul was brought back to life in his clones repeatedly so we know that in the marvel universe it is possible for souls of originals to be resurrected into their clones.
    Last edited by Tasuxeda; 09-21-2019 at 09:08 AM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasuxeda View Post
    While Ben Reilly does have his own soul we also have confirmation from Death that when the Jackal cloned him after his death that Ben's soul was brought back to life in his clones repeatedly so we know that in the marvel universe it is possible for souls of originals to be resurrected into their clones.
    But the question is if this is a process they're actually using here. And I'm not sure it is. And there are plenty of reasons it isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    We will see with Evan because he was killed in age of X-man. The dawn of X-men preview pic had him as a member. If you see him again it is because Krakoa brought him back.
    Yes, it's been confirmed that all of the deaths from AoX and Rosenberg's massacre were done with the idea that Hickman was going to reset the board anyways.

    That being said, it seems to me that Hickman may have had a hand in at least some of the events in those books. Putting Evan on Apocalypse's team then means that now, Hickman doesn't have to worry about introducing them.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasuxeda View Post
    While Ben Reilly does have his own soul we also have confirmation from Death that when the Jackal cloned him after his death that Ben's soul was brought back to life in his clones repeatedly so we know that in the marvel universe it is possible for souls of originals to be resurrected into their clones.
    And Doctor Strange confirmed that Curt Connors' son also has his original soul.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But the question is if this is a process they're actually using here. And I'm not sure it is. And there are plenty of reasons it isn't.
    Actually the main reason for thinking that marvel will have the original soul return to life in their clones is the same reason they likely had Death show up and confirm that Ben's soul had been resurrected multiple times, so they could try and convince fans that don't think that the Ben in that series was the original that he was and its the same with the x-men they likely want fans to continue to consider these copies as the original.

  6. #81
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponX View Post
    So when you’re asked to send in an original signed copy of a document you just run three the copy machine and send the one it’s spits out because hey it’s no different?

    And I’m not arguing that it’s some how lesser than me only that it isn’t me. And that’s kinda the entire point of resurrection it’s you not just an exact copy actually you.
    This is speculative fiction, not a office job. Your analogy misses the point. Imagine you had a way of precisely copying that document such that nobody, not even you could tell which was original. Then shuffle them a few times. Then burn one. Now when somebody wants the original you give them what you have. There is no difference, so what’s the problem?

    We renew the cells in our body constantly. Many signs of ageing are evidence of the replication slowly degrading. None of us are precisely the same person at any one time.

    So if physicality doesn’t define us we are left with consciousness. That’s pretty much it. Many cultures have defined the soul as consciousness, not some ethereal indivisible thing. So now we are into philosophy. A materialist would categorically state that we are just matter and that even consciousness is just a physical process. They would struggle to define what individuality is anyway if an exact replica was created, because same matter is same person. I would imagine Hickman is a materialist. I can’t imagine him believing in souls based on his stories.

    Some science philosophy suggests all arrangements of matter coexist independently and what we perceive as time and continuity, as cause and effect, is just us joining these dots together. In that regard there is no such thing as individuality but instead it is an illusion unique to the conscious. Or to put that a more fun way, go and read Permutation City and then we can discuss if there is such a thing as a non-mystical or secular soul. Or read up on the Boltzmann brain.

    I don’t believe in souls, so for me bringing Nightcrawler back from the edge of Heaven was not my idea of a good story. Doesn’t make it a bad story. But it does make this form of resurrection much more palatable.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 09-21-2019 at 12:00 PM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  7. #82
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I'm still pissy that PAD messed up Clone Conspiracy's ambiguity because he can't stop writing about the same 10 things from the 90's.

  8. #83
    Mighty Member sungila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    This is speculative fiction, not a office job. Your analogy misses the point. Imagine you had a way of precisely copying that document such that nobody, not even you could tell which was original. Then shuffle them a few times. Then burn one. Now when somebody wants the original you give them what you have. There is no difference, so what’s the problem?

    We renew the cells in our body constantly. Many signs of ageing are evidence of the replication slowly degrading. None of us are precisely the same person at any one time.

    So if physicality doesn’t define us we are left with consciousness. That’s pretty much it. May cultures have defined the soul as consciousness, not some ethereal indivisible thing. So now we are into philosophy. A materialist would categorically state that we are just matter and that even consciousness is just a physical process. They would struggle to define what individuality is anyway if an exact replica was created, because same matter is same person. I would imagine Hickman is a materialist. I can’t imagine him believing in souls based on his stories.

    Some science philosophy suggests all arrangements of matter coexist independently and what we perceive as time and continuity, as cause and effect, is just us joining these dots together. In that regard there is no such thing as individuality but instead it is an illusion unique to the conscious. Or to put that a more fun way, go and read Permutation City and then we can discuss if there is such a thing as a non-mystical or secular soul. Or read up on the Boltzmann brain.

    I don’t believe in souls, so for me bringing Nightcrawler back from the edge of Heaven was not my idea of a good story. Doesn’t make it a bad story. But it does make this form of resurrection much more palatable.
    Interesting things and hmmm...

    Hickman really like the smote palate. And I do too. Smoldering. Heaps of embers. The mound.

    Brooding on edges. Page tuner.

    Isn't it possible, regardless of one's belief, that 'belief' exits in the other and doesn't require belief to believe in itself as 'belief'.

    Maybe that's how it is. If it is. While it is. Or isn't while being.

    It's meaning. It's memory. It's a message board. A 'you want me to build a what' said Noah. Or Ishamel holding a plank. "A What?"

    Me? Okay so call me X.
    Then listen.

    And hope you hear "Hi X"

    in passing.

    A genetic code. It's sphere. As it bumps...blends...bubbles...spins etc. In narrative and story an 'experience' of Heaven (for instance) for Nightcrawler could be the influence of a life on lives could be the 'speaking' death in the conversation of the living...the archive of identity...the vessel...oh, I don't know the physics...what it is, could be this 'cultish' quality of Hickman's societal constructions (in East of West) in his conspiracy secret orders in Secret Wars in his somewhat cold reading of people and society is inherently unconsciously within a sphere of belief...within which the artist, by making a bubble, a bag in the aquarium, an aquarium on the mantle overlooking the sea...is capable of disbelief, without asphyxiation.

    I think of how society and story must have already existed before either had been understood. As a tree was a tree before it was named. As with the X-Books and not outside them, the pieces of the whole (Nightcrawler's soul) are set, a table of elements, that reincarnation is one way of answering a prayer...of validating time spent at play...and that extinction is a powerful means for beginning a story...how post-(the given) is utterly contemporary and over the edge...how the best and most effective means for 'a future' is in golden eggs, or 'golden paradise' - in the winglessness darkness...

    A speech bubble. A panel.

    X is used in mathematics, and maps, stories of treasures, but also in marking a thing WRONG...or a box as chosen.

    X is a value, yet to be =
    even after it's given

    it retains it's origin
    of being held

    to hatch

    ...Ripley's cracked helmet for example

    or dawn...

    what if society is actually simple cells
    where saints wear habits

    and eventually go crazy
    working in the sun

    seeping through the bars
    like colors

    without their hoods on

    talking with birds
    or a sentient island

    that held the old team to form the new team to get the new team and then....because an island can...and isn't an island to the earth...adapt an ever more interesting and complex language for netting the next fly...

    the patience of a spider...
    to fly on electricity in the sky, with a tiny silken ballon...

    or speech bubble!

    you could easily make an X in any =


    when we say the life of a body (within a body)...we get something back

    static cling...or the way a ring...is in a bell...or a cell phone...iphone...android...with no bell...nobody answers right?

    just teXt
    Last edited by sungila; 09-21-2019 at 11:50 AM.
    “The reason of the unreasonableness which against my reason is wrought, doth so weaken my reason, as with all reason I do justly complain on your beauty.”
    ― Miguel de Cervantes Don Quixote

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasuxeda View Post
    Actually the main reason for thinking that marvel will have the original soul return to life in their clones is the same reason they likely had Death show up and confirm that Ben's soul had been resurrected multiple times, so they could try and convince fans that don't think that the Ben in that series was the original that he was and its the same with the x-men they likely want fans to continue to consider these copies as the original.
    We know that it's possible, not that it's happening here. So until Mistress Death shows up to confirm it, I don't think it's the same.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    We know that it's possible, not that it's happening here. So until Mistress Death shows up to confirm it, I don't think it's the same.
    Do you mean that you think that the original souls of the x-men have not been ressurected into their clones or are you just keeping you mind open to either possibility?

  11. #86
    New Mutant TOTALITY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But the question is if this is a process they're actually using here. And I'm not sure it is. And there are plenty of reasons it isn't.
    They actually say in the issue that they’re putting each mutant’s soul back in their body! There is no indication that we are meant to doubt that! I don’t think Hickman is presently too concerned with the spiritual/supernatural side of the nature of personhood in the Marvel universe, but he did anticipate those concerns enough to include that language as an olive branch. If plenty of clones and androids in the past have been *retroactively* confirmed to have souls, I think we can trust this, the most thorough explanation of a resurrection I’ve ever seen, which says up front that it grants them a soul.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasuxeda View Post
    Do you mean that you think that the original souls of the x-men have not been ressurected into their clones or are you just keeping you mind open to either possibility?
    The point I was trying to make was that the Cyclops who died on Sol's Hammer is never going to marry Jean or see their children grow up. That Cyclops' existence has ended. The Scott Summers who Xavier resurrected is perhaps a perfect copy of the original, but he is still a copy even if for the X-Men he is for all intents and purposes the same Scott Summers they know and love. So, nobody is ever missed because everybody can be replaced.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelman View Post
    The point I was trying to make was that the Cyclops who died on Sol's Hammer is never going to marry Jean or see their children grow up. That Cyclops' existence has ended. The Scott Summers who Xavier resurrected is perhaps a perfect copy of the original, but he is still a copy even if for the X-Men he is for all intents and purposes the same Scott Summers they know and love. So, nobody is ever missed because everybody can be replaced.
    Even if the soul of that Cyclops when to the afterlife then return to the earth to live on inhabiting his clone?

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasuxeda View Post
    Do you mean that you think that the original souls of the x-men have not been ressurected into their clones or are you just keeping you mind open to either possibility?
    I'll keep my mind open, but I still don't buy what Magneto and Xavier are selling. I think what we forget is that this process has to work the way they are selling it or else people won't believe it. Magneto is certainly not going to admit to Lorna that things aren't right.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasuxeda View Post
    Even if the soul of that Cyclops when to the afterlife then return to the earth to live on inhabiting his clone?
    I don't think that's how resurrection works in House of X. That's the problem.

    But, what if... what if the process was flawed and each time a mutant comes back, he or she comes back a little different? What if Scott came back gay and he was into Logan?
    Last edited by Marvelman; 09-21-2019 at 11:38 PM.

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