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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    You ignored my point about Peter and Jen alike and turned it into romantic potential, which I did not insinuate.

    Are we going to stick to the original premise of this thread, or is this now yet another free-for-all for Peter and the "Marvel lady of the month" shipping?
    As far as I know, the She-Hulk has not broken the fourth wall for quite some time. I do not know if Jennifer has woman-child problems. We know that she has no secret identity. The only real similarity that Jennifer has with Peter Parker is their sense of self sacrifice. Both are known for not getting over a death of a loved one. Peter towards Gwen Stacy and Jennifer towards her cousin Bruce Banner. Both were considered loners(outcast by their peers) before they become superheroes. Both are highly intellectual. Everything that I've said can be found in John Bryne's run on the Fantastic Four whereby Jennifer was a supporting cast member. Jennifer's background story was established by Bryne. That's where I got my information from as well as the development of my argument to why I felt that Spider-Man and She-Hulk should be working together as part of The Avengers and Fantastic Four. Spidey is a member of both teams. Yet I see no interaction between Jennifer and Peter...
    Last edited by Darthfury78; 11-16-2019 at 11:54 PM.

  2. #47
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Why don't we all go back at your original post and scrutinize your points.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    Marvel is a business. Yet, they don't think like one. If they want their books to sell as much as the Japanese Manga, they need to upgrade their business model as it's been stuck in the past since the early 1990's.
    That's right, Marvel is a business. It wants to entertain its fanbase and customers while at the same time turn a profit. The best models have creative side and business side dovetail to produce works that are critically and commercially successful.

    Since you mention Japanese Manga, then it helps to show exactly how successful Manga is, and in which markets, if we're not talking about the US.

    And today is similar to the early 90's in exactly what way?

    Now let's move to your latest post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    As far as I know, the She-Hulk has not broken the fourth wall for quite some time.
    Hence my use of the past tense for her.
    We know that she has no secret identity.
    Same case of past tense here.
    The only real similarity that Jennifer has with Peter Parker is their sense of self sacrifice.
    Then you contradict yourself with that "exactly alike" assertion earlier.
    Yet I see no interaction between Jennifer and Peter...
    You are not alone in voicing "my ideal Marvel friendship" but Marvel is not obliged to pander to each and every fan's wish. Some accept it with resignation and move on to continue to read whatever titles they already read. Others give up on Marvel altogether. Then there are those who choose a third path…
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    Why don't we all go back at your original post and scrutinize your points.

    That's right, Marvel is a business. It wants to entertain its fanbase and customers while at the same time turn a profit. The best models have creative side and business side dovetail to produce works that are critically and commercially successful.

    Since you mention Japanese Manga, then it helps to show exactly how successful Manga is, and in which markets, if we're not talking about the US.

    And today is similar to the early 90's in exactly what way?

    Now let's move to your latest post.

    Hence my use of the past tense for her.

    Same case of past tense here.

    Then you contradict yourself with that "exactly alike" assertion earlier.

    You are not alone in voicing "my ideal Marvel friendship" but Marvel is not obliged to pander to each and every fan's wish. Some accept it with resignation and move on to continue to read whatever titles they already read. Others give up on Marvel altogether. Then there are those who choose a third path…
    Marvel is not obligated to do anything, really. However, any future writer or editor who are members on this forum could one day work for Marvel with all the information that they have learned from the cbr forum. For example, it would include listening to the individual reader comments on the direction of Marvel's characters to create better stories. This has less to do with what I want and more to do with finding new source material. An example would be story plot ideas that taken from real world events that might make the stories interesting.

    As it is, the comic book industry has been stagnate for the past 3 decades in terms of sales figures(ex. 1990 and 1991) and story ideas compared to a serialized manga series. Everything that I have read on my favorite comic book titles are the same stories repackaged. Perhaps the best way for the comic book business to move forward is to look at the Japanese manga and anime that has taken a huge chunk of Marvel's U.S. business model. The question that Marvel has to ask is how to reverse it? The Japanese manga series never does a reset, nor do the writers repeat the same story. One Piece is a good example of a manga that moves forward with new story line ideas not done in previous chapters. Nor does the stories involve the same villain after they had been defeated. The level to challenges gets harder with each new event which brings in readers who would out otherwise buy the manga. I hated the One Piece cartoon that was translated and edited by 4kids. But once I read the manga, I was hooked.
    Last edited by Darthfury78; 11-17-2019 at 06:16 AM.

  4. #49
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    I miss the days when Spider-Man was part of the Avengers and X-Men respectively.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    I think that Spider-Man would do so much better(sales) if Marvel avoids repeating the same past stories. When was the last time Spidey encountered The Morlocks? All I see is segregation among Marvel's editorial departments instead of partnering up and exchanging characters and story ideas that might do better respectively. Marvel is a business. Yet, they don't treat it like one. If they want their books to sell as much as the Japanese Manga, they need to upgrade their business model as it's been stuck in the past since the early 1990's. What would be an improvement is to make Spider-Man a member of The Mighty Avengers, which Marvel hasn't done since Bendis left the series. Segregation equals a loss of opportunities to make the readers buy the product. I never understood why Spider-Man is excluded from The Avengers, Fantastic Four, and The X-Men. Peter would fit in well with either of them as he would bring his fanbase with him. Kaine Parker would fit in well with X-Force.

    Don't forget that Spidey is most closest with the FF. He's practically a member of their extended family. He's best friends' with Johnny Storm and Franklin Richard's looks up to him. He can be just as nerdy with science as Reed Richards. The FF always has the door open for him.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reed View Post
    Don't forget that Spidey is most closest with the FF. He's practically a member of their extended family. He's best friends' with Johnny Storm and Franklin Richard's looks up to him. He can be just as nerdy with science as Reed Richards. The FF always has the door open for him.
    I wish that the same can be said about the Original X-Men, who tried to recruit Peter Parker as well. Imagine if Spider-Man was a member of the original X-Men? I could see Peter and Hank McCoy as best friends...

  7. #52
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Dude he is probably the one guy that NEVER excluded from anything, I bet if he tried crossing a Krakoan gate he would be let through because his Parker Luck is a mutant power

  8. #53
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    The Japanese manga series never does a reset, nor do the writers repeat the same story. One Piece is a good example of a manga that moves forward with new story line ideas not done in previous chapters. Nor does the stories involve the same villain after they had been defeated.
    Then there's stuff like Dragonball Z, which only has one story and it keeps repeating itself and resetting things all the time.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Dude he is probably the one guy that NEVER excluded from anything, I bet if he tried crossing a Krakoan gate he would be let through because his Parker Luck is a mutant power
    I wonder why Peter Parker has been excluded from Jason Arron's Mighty Avengers? This is a team that Spider-Man would fit in well with the team dynamic. Especially with Carol Danvers and Jennifer Walters. Spider-Man has not been a regular member of the Avengers since Bendis left the series 8 years ago.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    I wonder why Peter Parker has been excluded from Jason Arron's Mighty Avengers? This is a team that Spider-Man would fit in well with the team dynamic. Especially with Carol Danvers and Jennifer Walters. Spider-Man has not been a regular member of the Avengers since Bendis left the series 8 years ago.
    First and foremost, Spider-Man is a major pillar of Marvel, and the Spider-Office editors and chief writers have to sign off on how the character can be used in other team books and so on.

    If Nick Spencer and for that matter Jason Aaron doesn't want Spider-Man to be part of the Avengers, no Spider-Man in the Avengers, period.

    From a publication perspective, Spider-Man is never going to need the Avengers...it's the Avengers who needed Spider-Man when Bendis ran that title.

    Bendis was asked to do Avengers but he wanted Marvel's Avengers to mirror DC's Justice League and have the heavy hitters. Marvel called Avengers "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" on the tagline but the perception was major Marvel heroes like Spider-Man and Wolverine were never part of the Avengers so that never worked. In DC, Justice League had this aura because the acutally most popular and famous heroes -- Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman -- were part of the line-up, certainly in Grant Morrison's successful JLA run that happened a few years before.

    So you see when Spider-Man was in the New Avengers, it was a favor to them. It was for their benefit at his expense. In exchange for being a mascot character other Avengers make fun of, and Tony Stark gets to patronize in-page, Spider-Man readers (numerically larger and featuring more casual readers than any other Marvel title) got suckered to caring about the Avengers if only to follow their favorite character.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Then there's stuff like Dragonball Z, which only has one story and it keeps repeating itself and resetting things all the time.
    That's because people seem to like it that way. The only thing they seem to complain about is that it's Goku who's the protagonist.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    I wonder why Peter Parker has been excluded from Jason Arron's Mighty Avengers? This is a team that Spider-Man would fit in well with the team dynamic. Especially with Carol Danvers and Jennifer Walters. Spider-Man has not been a regular member of the Avengers since Bendis left the series 8 years ago.
    I legit don't want to see how Aaron would write Spidey lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    That's because people seem to like it that way. The only thing they seem to complain about is that it's Goku who's the protagonist.
    Super being the way it is is on Toriyama's hands, he ironically became the opposite of what he used to be, since he wanted characters to grow older, and even had to bitch with his higher ups to manage to do that since they wanted Goku to be a kid for eternity, and Toriyama wanted Goku to be older, now Toriyama regrets that characters became so old in End of Z, which is why Super has everyone looking the same as Boo Saga, 'cause Toriyama chose to do that, even in characters that don't make sense, like Goten, Trunks and Marron.

    So yeah, while fan demand can be part of the reason, Toriyama nowadays prefers to keep characters in that status quo.

  13. #58
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    First and foremost, Spider-Man is a major pillar of Marvel, and the Spider-Office editors and chief writers have to sign off on how the character can be used in other team books and so on.

    If Nick Spencer and for that matter Jason Aaron doesn't want Spider-Man to be part of the Avengers, no Spider-Man in the Avengers, period.

    From a publication perspective, Spider-Man is never going to need the Avengers...it's the Avengers who needed Spider-Man when Bendis ran that title.

    Bendis was asked to do Avengers but he wanted Marvel's Avengers to mirror DC's Justice League and have the heavy hitters. Marvel called Avengers "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" on the tagline but the perception was major Marvel heroes like Spider-Man and Wolverine were never part of the Avengers so that never worked. In DC, Justice League had this aura because the acutally most popular and famous heroes -- Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman -- were part of the line-up, certainly in Grant Morrison's successful JLA run that happened a few years before.

    So you see when Spider-Man was in the New Avengers, it was a favor to them. It was for their benefit at his expense. In exchange for being a mascot character other Avengers make fun of, and Tony Stark gets to patronize in-page, Spider-Man readers (numerically larger and featuring more casual readers than any other Marvel title) got suckered to caring about the Avengers if only to follow their favorite character.
    Great write up, the Avengers benifit from Spidey and not the other way around - Bendis was ahead of the curve when he wrote New Avengers

  14. #59
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Spider-Man has been shown to hold his own against whole teams of heroes (X-Men, Avengers, etc.) and villains (Sinister Six, Sinister Syndicate) so he doesn't really need to be part of a team.

    Whenever he IS on a team, he is either only glorified window dressing or nerfed heavily so that he can't really contribute much. He is also generally treated like the resident idiot by other team members (often B and C listers like Iron Fist or Mockingbird) despite having saved the world in faaaaaar more books and storylines than those other characters have even been featured in print. I love Spiderwoman, but she's been canceled so many times and was even depowered for a fair chunk of the 80's and 90's yet we are supposed to believe she is far more experienced because of her occasional SHIELD membership???
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Great write up, the Avengers benifit from Spidey and not the other way around - Bendis was ahead of the curve when he wrote New Avengers
    I don't know if this was a Bendis scene, but I remember one bit where the Avengers (with Spider-Man) are facing giant octopus-walker robots created by Dr Octopus, and one of the Avengers (Cap? Tony?) is "He's one of your villains, Parker, what do we need to know about him?" and Peter is "Well, I like to mention the stupid hair, and he's really sensitive about his weight..."

    On the one hand, it reads as typical Parker banter. On the other hand, it's exactly the issue with him on teams. He's crazy smart, very adaptable, and super experienced with the use of his abilities (and how to use the terrain / environment to his advantage). But he has zero idea how to contribute the sort of tactical breakdown that was being sought in that moment. He flies by the seat of his pants, and, thanks to his brain, his experience and his powers (especially that spider-sense and those reflexes!), that totally works for him, but when teamed up with folks that can't dodge bullets, don't have a superhuman danger sense, etc. he's not really able to adjust his thinking for their various capabilities, and his advice isn't terribly relevant.

    And that's totally fun. Spidey *isn't* Cap. I kind of loved that scene for showcasing how his priorities in a fight with Octavius were so not relevant to the sort of tactical sitrep that was being sought.

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