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  1. #61
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I don't know if this was a Bendis scene, but I remember one bit where the Avengers (with Spider-Man) are facing giant octopus-walker robots created by Dr Octopus, and one of the Avengers (Cap? Tony?) is "He's one of your villains, Parker, what do we need to know about him?" and Peter is "Well, I like to mention the stupid hair, and he's really sensitive about his weight..."

    On the one hand, it reads as typical Parker banter. On the other hand, it's exactly the issue with him on teams. He's crazy smart, very adaptable, and super experienced with the use of his abilities (and how to use the terrain / environment to his advantage). But he has zero idea how to contribute the sort of tactical breakdown that was being sought in that moment. He flies by the seat of his pants, and, thanks to his brain, his experience and his powers (especially that spider-sense and those reflexes!), that totally works for him, but when teamed up with folks that can't dodge bullets, don't have a superhuman danger sense, etc. he's not really able to adjust his thinking for their various capabilities, and his advice isn't terribly relevant.

    And that's totally fun. Spidey *isn't* Cap. I kind of loved that scene for showcasing how his priorities in a fight with Octavius were so not relevant to the sort of tactical sitrep that was being sought.
    congratulations, you solved spider-man on the avengers

    that's not a joke, this is the best cbr forum post about it
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  2. #62
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I legit don't want to see how Aaron would write Spidey lol.



    Super being the way it is is on Toriyama's hands, he ironically became the opposite of what he used to be, since he wanted characters to grow older, and even had to bitch with his higher ups to manage to do that since they wanted Goku to be a kid for eternity, and Toriyama wanted Goku to be older, now Toriyama regrets that characters became so old in End of Z, which is why Super has everyone looking the same as Boo Saga, 'cause Toriyama chose to do that, even in characters that don't make sense, like Goten, Trunks and Marron.

    So yeah, while fan demand can be part of the reason, Toriyama nowadays prefers to keep characters in that status quo.
    Funny enough, he did write Spider-Man in Astonishing Spider-Man & Wolverine, a six-part miniseries that had the web-slinger and the self-proclaimed "best there is at what he does, and what he does isn't nice" ricocheting across time and having all kinds of bats*** crazy adventures together, which culminated in them becoming literal blood brothers. Not to mention, if I recall right, he was the one who wrote that particular issue of Avengers Vs. X-Men where Spider-Man stayed behind to fight Phoenix-powered Colossus and Magik and give the Avengers a shot at escaping. He got the living hell beaten out of him, even with Colossus's remaining morals causing him to hold back in an attempt to spare Spider-Man's life, although Magik was telling him to just get it over with and finish him, but managed to turn the tables by playing on their growing tension with each other to get them to fight each other instead of him, which ultimately let him escape with his life. At the very least, he seemed to have a somewhat decent grasp of Spider-Man's character.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Funny enough, he did write Spider-Man in Astonishing Spider-Man & Wolverine, a six-part miniseries that had the web-slinger and the self-proclaimed "best there is at what he does, and what he does isn't nice" ricocheting across time and having all kinds of bats*** crazy adventures together, which culminated in them becoming literal blood brothers. Not to mention, if I recall right, he was the one who wrote that particular issue of Avengers Vs. X-Men where Spider-Man stayed behind to fight Phoenix-powered Colossus and Magik and give the Avengers a shot at escaping. He got the living hell beaten out of him, even with Colossus's remaining morals causing him to hold back in an attempt to spare Spider-Man's life, although Magik was telling him to just get it over with and finish him, but managed to turn the tables by playing on their growing tension with each other to get them to fight each other instead of him, which ultimately let him escape with his life. At the very least, he seemed to have a somewhat decent grasp of Spider-Man's character.
    He does, but either his fanboyism gets the better of him or he just suddenly turn to a weird and unexpected direction that would make you go "what is the point of this supposed to be" at least that's how i feel about his Wolverine, starts cool then it gets weird, i would say that he is usually better doing dumb superhero stuff without much detph, but fun enougth to pass the time. But his Avengers run seems to be a drag (i only read the first arc and that was enoygth for me).
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  4. #64
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    He does, but either his fanboyism gets the better of him or he just suddenly turn to a weird and unexpected direction that would make you go "what is the point of this supposed to be" at least that's how i feel about his Wolverine, starts cool then it gets weird, i would say that he is usually better doing dumb superhero stuff without much detph, but fun enougth to pass the time. But his Avengers run seems to be a drag (i only read the first arc and that was enoygth for me).
    His Avengers seems to be a case of throwing whatever crazy s*** he can at all the walls to see what sticks. Some of it works or is at least interesting enough for me, and I'll still give Aaron props for making T'Challa/Black Panther the Avengers' chairperson and the Avengers' Big Three (Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor Odinson) realizing the team had to evolve beyond them/the old status quo to move forward into the future. I'm also waiting to see how the global arms race of superpowered teams that started up in the wake of the Avengers formally disassociating themselves from the U.S. government ultimately goes down. To tie back to Spider-Man, with the latest Avengers issue revealing that Mephisto has been plotting against the Avengers since their formation, I'm pretty sure that might be a good excuse for Aaron to bring the web-slinger in if he wants.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #65
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    Spider-Man has been shown to hold his own against whole teams of heroes (X-Men, Avengers, etc.) and villains (Sinister Six, Sinister Syndicate) so he doesn't really need to be part of a team.

    Whenever he IS on a team, he is either only glorified window dressing or nerfed heavily so that he can't really contribute much. He is also generally treated like the resident idiot by other team members (often B and C listers like Iron Fist or Mockingbird) despite having saved the world in faaaaaar more books and storylines than those other characters have even been featured in print. I love Spiderwoman, but she's been canceled so many times and was even depowered for a fair chunk of the 80's and 90's yet we are supposed to believe she is far more experienced because of her occasional SHIELD membership???
    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I don't know if this was a Bendis scene, but I remember one bit where the Avengers (with Spider-Man) are facing giant octopus-walker robots created by Dr Octopus, and one of the Avengers (Cap? Tony?) is "He's one of your villains, Parker, what do we need to know about him?" and Peter is "Well, I like to mention the stupid hair, and he's really sensitive about his weight..."

    On the one hand, it reads as typical Parker banter. On the other hand, it's exactly the issue with him on teams. He's crazy smart, very adaptable, and super experienced with the use of his abilities (and how to use the terrain / environment to his advantage). But he has zero idea how to contribute the sort of tactical breakdown that was being sought in that moment. He flies by the seat of his pants, and, thanks to his brain, his experience and his powers (especially that spider-sense and those reflexes!), that totally works for him, but when teamed up with folks that can't dodge bullets, don't have a superhuman danger sense, etc. he's not really able to adjust his thinking for their various capabilities, and his advice isn't terribly relevant.

    And that's totally fun. Spidey *isn't* Cap. I kind of loved that scene for showcasing how his priorities in a fight with Octavius were so not relevant to the sort of tactical sitrep that was being sought.
    Exactly!

    My favorite thing about War of The Realms:


  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    That's the frustrating part of Spider-Man in the Avengers. He's the guy who everyone makes fun of and so on.

    It's not that this scene in the War of the Realms tie-in wasn't funny, it's just that this scene represents about 90% of Spider-Man's entire role in Avengers stories and it gets frustrating.

    For a Spider-Man fan who thinks and believes that their favorite happens to be Marvel's greatest hero and character and who like the prospect of him being in a super-team and getting to save the world on occassion...it's always frustrating because Spider-Man never gets to be the Avenger that saves the day. It always remains the Cap/Tony/Thor show with some others in line ahead. And all Spider-Man is there for is to pose, be a mascot, and be the quippy guy, and that aspect trickled to the movies.

    There's one moment in any Avengers moment where Spider-Man does something cool, definite, or awesome compared to what he does in his own title. So as a Spider-Man fan, there's no incentive to reading him in any of these team books.

    In the Justice League cartoon, The Flash was quippy guy but he got episodes and moments where he saved the day and got some self-respect. Spider-Man never gets that.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Funny enough, he did write Spider-Man in Astonishing Spider-Man & Wolverine, a six-part miniseries that had the web-slinger and the self-proclaimed "best there is at what he does, and what he does isn't nice" ricocheting across time and having all kinds of bats*** crazy adventures together, which culminated in them becoming literal blood brothers.
    I heard about the blood brothers story, had no idea he wrote that... Still think it sounds weird to make those two into brothers lol.

    Not to mention, if I recall right, he was the one who wrote that particular issue of Avengers Vs. X-Men where Spider-Man stayed behind to fight Phoenix-powered Colossus and Magik and give the Avengers a shot at escaping. He got the living hell beaten out of him, even with Colossus's remaining morals causing him to hold back in an attempt to spare Spider-Man's life, although Magik was telling him to just get it over with and finish him, but managed to turn the tables by playing on their growing tension with each other to get them to fight each other instead of him, which ultimately let him escape with his life. At the very least, he seemed to have a somewhat decent grasp of Spider-Man's character.
    The hell, had no idea Aaron was involved in that trainwreck of an event...

    Checked out the credits from AvX#9 and it says this:

    https://i.imgur.com/vs6Qu1a.png

    So Aaron wasn't the only one involved in that story, but he did write the script, and didn't make Spidey sound like a pathetic manchild like he does with Thor and Strange, so yeah, kudos to him, since that was one of the few interesting bits of that trainwreck of an event.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the Justice League cartoon, The Flash was quippy guy but he got episodes and moments where he saved the day and got some self-respect. Spider-Man never gets that.
    When Lex fused with Brainiac, you'd expect either Batman or Supes to take him down (Most likely Supes), but it was Flash who defeated him (Even though Speedforce was an asspull there, still made a really cool moment), so yeah, JL cartoon is way better at balancing the cast.

    Unless you're J'onn, J'onn fucking sucks.

  8. #68
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    When Lex fused with Brainiac, you'd expect either Batman or Supes to take him down (Most likely Supes), but it was Flash who defeated him (Even though Speedforce was an asspull there, still made a really cool moment), so yeah, JL cartoon is way better at balancing the cast.
    DCAU Wally had his moments even if he only felt, like, 2/5 of comic Wally to me (meanwhile Wonder Woman was 2/5 or 3/5 Wonder Woman depending on the episode).
    Unless you're J'onn, J'onn fucking sucks.
    I hope this is just referring to his treatment on the show and not the character as a whole .

  9. #69
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's the frustrating part of Spider-Man in the Avengers. He's the guy who everyone makes fun of and so on.

    It's not that this scene in the War of the Realms tie-in wasn't funny, it's just that this scene represents about 90% of Spider-Man's entire role in Avengers stories and it gets frustrating.

    For a Spider-Man fan who thinks and believes that their favorite happens to be Marvel's greatest hero and character and who like the prospect of him being in a super-team and getting to save the world on occassion...it's always frustrating because Spider-Man never gets to be the Avenger that saves the day. It always remains the Cap/Tony/Thor show with some others in line ahead. And all Spider-Man is there for is to pose, be a mascot, and be the quippy guy, and that aspect trickled to the movies.

    There's one moment in any Avengers moment where Spider-Man does something cool, definite, or awesome compared to what he does in his own title. So as a Spider-Man fan, there's no incentive to reading him in any of these team books.

    In the Justice League cartoon, The Flash was quippy guy but he got episodes and moments where he saved the day and got some self-respect. Spider-Man never gets that.
    I can get why a Spidey fan would feel that way, but in his own book when the Avengers show up he definitely is the hero and outshines the big three.

    For example in the Ends of The Earth he outshines the Avenger, but in the Avengers books he is a foil for the more "serious" characters

  10. #70
    "Emma is STILL right! Vegeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I can get why a Spidey fan would feel that way, but in his own book when the Avengers show up he definitely is the hero and outshines the big three.

    For example in the Ends of The Earth he outshines the Avenger, but in the Avengers books he is a foil for the more "serious" characters
    Well, the difference is the Avengers were only "guest stars" in Ends of the Earth, where as Spidey was being touted as a legitimate member of the Avengers when Bendis was writing the book.
    "The White Queen welcomes you, TO DIE!"

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    DCAU Wally had his moments even if he only felt, like, 2/5 of comic Wally to me (meanwhile Wonder Woman was 2/5 or 3/5 Wonder Woman depending on the episode).
    He felt a lot more like Kid Flash than anything, and sure, he was Kid Flash, but he was a teenager back then.

    But DCAU won't necessarily adapt a character that faithfuly, if AMAZO is any hint, or John.

    I hope this is just referring to his treatment on the show and not the character as a whole .
    I was talking more about his treatment, 'cause he gets jobbed a lot and so many villains conveniently counter his powers... But as a character he was meh too, mostly because of how little focus he got, and it got worse starting in Unlimited I think, with him not leaving the tower much, then he left the tower to live a normal life and only returned in the ending.

    Honestly Martian characters sound really, really dangerous, but you'll never get that impression from J'onn, M'gann from YJ's season 1 gives better showings, and she's specifically a novice there, but she uses her powers like telepathy as often as she breathes.

    Hell, I'm pretty sure M'Gann from that Justice League vs Fatal Five movie showed off her powers better than JL J'onn usually did, and she only had a few fights in there, his standards are just really low lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    Well, the difference is the Avengers were only "guest stars" in Ends of the Earth, where as Spidey was being touted as a legitimate member of the Avengers when Bendis was writing the book.
    To be fair, Spidey picked the Avengers in Ends of the Earth specifically to counter pick the Sinister Six, and they all got rekt anyways because Otto counter picked the counter picks lol.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I can get why a Spidey fan would feel that way, but in his own book when the Avengers show up he definitely is the hero and outshines the big three.

    For example in the Ends of The Earth he outshines the Avenger, but in the Avengers books he is a foil for the more "serious" characters
    Because it was his book, logic dictates that whoever is the lead on the book had to save the day. When DD was the guest in ASM in their first team up, it was Peter who save the day because itwas his book, when Peter was the guest in two issue story arc in DD book, Mstt saved the day because it was his book. The same logic applied to the End of the Earth arc, Peter is the protagonist of course it has to be about him.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  13. #73
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegeta View Post
    Well, the difference is the Avengers were only "guest stars" in Ends of the Earth, where as Spidey was being touted as a legitimate member of the Avengers when Bendis was writing the book.
    Yeah true, my educated guess as to why Spidey is the comic relief is because there simply needs to be one.

    How many serious characters can you have on a large roster of very serious characters?

    The comparison with JLA and Avengers is a bit apples to oranges since the JLA has a much smaller cast of characters as opposed to Avengers which has a rotating cast every arc and most of them are deadly serious.

    So characters like Spidey play a crucial role in raising the morale with this quips.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    He felt a lot more like Kid Flash than anything, and sure, he was Kid Flash, but he was a teenager back then.

    But DCAU won't necessarily adapt a character that faithfuly, if AMAZO is any hint, or John.



    I was talking more about his treatment, 'cause he gets jobbed a lot and so many villains conveniently counter his powers... But as a character he was meh too, mostly because of how little focus he got, and it got worse starting in Unlimited I think, with him not leaving the tower much, then he left the tower to live a normal life and only returned in the ending.

    Honestly Martian characters sound really, really dangerous, but you'll never get that impression from J'onn, M'gann from YJ's season 1 gives better showings, and she's specifically a novice there, but she uses her powers like telepathy as often as she breathes.

    Hell, I'm pretty sure M'Gann from that Justice League vs Fatal Five movie showed off her powers better than JL J'onn usually did, and she only had a few fights in there, his standards are just really low lol.



    To be fair, Spidey picked the Avengers in Ends of the Earth specifically to counter pick the Sinister Six, and they all got rekt anyways because Otto counter picked the counter picks lol.
    Peter: I knee that you would do that, so i did this.
    Otto: Ah but i knew that would knew that i would do that, so i planed for this
    Peter: But i knew that would knew that i would know about this, so now i'm going to.

    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  15. #75
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Because it was his book, logic dictates that whoever is the lead on the book had to save the day. When DD was the guest in ASM in their first team up, it was Peter who save the day because itwas his book, when Peter was the guest in two issue story arc in DD book, Mstt saved the day because it was his book. The same logic applied to the End of the Earth arc, Peter is the protagonist of course it has to be about him.
    Then I suppose the next logical question is: who are the protagonists in an Avengers book?

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