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  1. #241
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    Currently reading Matt Fraction's Hawkeye, and I'm even more convinced than I was before that Spider-Man wouldn't work as an Avenger.

    Reason I say this is because Fraction's take on Hawkeye is in very much Peter Parker-esque. His Clint is played up as a working-class everyman and the book focuses solely on Clint's side of the MU and not anyone else's (Fraction even starts his run by saying "This is what Clint Barton does when he isn't with the Avengers.").

    In the book's defense, it shows that an everyman superhero can be an Avenger and have it feel believable. But it also proves that being an Avenger isn't something trivial, and that it would absolutely affect Spider-Man in ways that no one would not be happy about:

    1. When an Avenger gets caught by the police for acting as vigilante and breaking into a mob-owned club to help someone out (something Spider-Man does all the time), he/she can apparently just tell the cops they are an Avenger and to check his/her pockets for an Avengers ID card. Translate this to Spider-Man comics and it would take the punch out of Spider-Man's relationship to the authorities.

    2. Clint later gets his membership put on probation by Iron Man for going rogue like that (again, something Spider-Man does all the time) and violating the Avengers' clause. This suggests that an Avenger Spider-Man would have certain rules to abide by even when he is not with the Avengers.

    3. The reason New York's mobsters don't want to strike back at Clint is because they're afraid of having a dead Avenger on their hands. At one point they even have a meeting on how to work around this and half the mobsters at that meeting are Spider-Man villains. Surely they would be just as worried of going after Spider-Man if he was a card-carrying Avenger, right?

  2. #242
    Astonishing Member pageturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Currently reading Matt Fraction's Hawkeye, and I'm even more convinced than I was before that Spider-Man wouldn't work as an Avenger.

    Reason I say this is because Fraction's take on Hawkeye is in very much Peter Parker-esque. His Clint is played up as a working-class everyman and the book focuses solely on Clint's side of the MU and not anyone else's (Fraction even starts his run by saying "This is what Clint Barton does when he isn't with the Avengers.").

    In the book's defense, it shows that an everyman superhero can be an Avenger and have it feel believable. But it also proves that being an Avenger isn't something trivial, and that it would absolutely affect Spider-Man in ways that no one would not be happy about:

    1. When an Avenger gets caught by the police for acting as vigilante and breaking into a mob-owned club to help someone out (something Spider-Man does all the time), he/she can apparently just tell the cops they are an Avenger and to check his/her pockets for an Avengers ID card. Translate this to Spider-Man comics and it would take the punch out of Spider-Man's relationship to the authorities.

    2. Clint later gets his membership put on probation by Iron Man for going rogue like that (again, something Spider-Man does all the time) and violating the Avengers' clause. This suggests that an Avenger Spider-Man would have certain rules to abide by even when he is not with the Avengers.

    3. The reason New York's mobsters don't want to strike back at Clint is because they're afraid of having a dead Avenger on their hands. At one point they even have a meeting on how to work around this and half the mobsters at that meeting are Spider-Man villains. Surely they would be just as worried of going after Spider-Man if he was a card-carrying Avenger, right?
    1 He often gets a pass from cops he meets because he has saved so many of them over the years.
    2 Spiderman has higher moral code than Iron Man so the scorn is more likely to go the other way.
    3 If they ever killed spiderman they know they would have a pissed off DD, IF, Cage, Johnny Storm, among others to deal with. When Echo was killed Iron man got involved because she had been an avenger for 5 minutes. That is a calculated risk.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    1. When an Avenger gets caught by the police for acting as vigilante and breaking into a mob-owned club to help someone out (something Spider-Man does all the time), he/she can apparently just tell the cops they are an Avenger and to check his/her pockets for an Avengers ID card. Translate this to Spider-Man comics and it would take the punch out of Spider-Man's relationship to the authorities.

    2. Clint later gets his membership put on probation by Iron Man for going rogue like that (again, something Spider-Man does all the time) and violating the Avengers' clause. This suggests that an Avenger Spider-Man would have certain rules to abide by even when he is not with the Avengers.

    3. The reason New York's mobsters don't want to strike back at Clint is because they're afraid of having a dead Avenger on their hands. At one point they even have a meeting on how to work around this and half the mobsters at that meeting are Spider-Man villains. Surely they would be just as worried of going after Spider-Man if he was a card-carrying Avenger, right?
    1) Spider-Man conveniently forgets he even HAS an Avengers ID card. Heck, back in the 90's he didn't even how to use it to communicate directly with Moon Knight and called directly to the mansion for assistance.

    2) Iron Man should be the LAST Avenger to ever call out another for going rogue. Armor Wars anyone?

    3) Spider-Man doesn't act like a member of the Avengers. But I assure you, if something ever happened to him, most of the longer-time members as well as ALL of the street level heroes would respond in a New York minute.

  4. #244
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    1) Spider-Man conveniently forgets he even HAS an Avengers ID card. Heck, back in the 90's he didn't even how to use it to communicate directly with Moon Knight and called directly to the mansion for assistance.

    2) Iron Man should be the LAST Avenger to ever call out another for going rogue. Armor Wars anyone?

    3) Spider-Man doesn't act like a member of the Avengers. But I assure you, if something ever happened to him, most of the longer-time members as well as ALL of the street level heroes would respond in a New York minute.
    Interesting discussion there, especially agree on 2, particularly if you care to add in the original Civil War. As for the last point, don't forget the Fantastic Four, who are basically Spider-Man's extended superhero family. They'd certainly be out there trying to avenge Spidey, too. All that said, I can see the original argument about Spider-Man as an Avenger removing a certain element of tension from his stories because he'd have a pretty strong safety net to fall back on if he got himself in trouble he couldn't web, talk, fight, or otherwise resolve on his own.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #245
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    I'm going to stubbornly do what I want because I think I'm right/smartest guy in the room is Iron Man's thing.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageturner View Post
    1 He often gets a pass from cops he meets because he has saved so many of them over the years.
    2 Spiderman has higher moral code than Iron Man so the scorn is more likely to go the other way.
    3 If they ever killed spiderman they know they would have a pissed off DD, IF, Cage, Johnny Storm, among others to deal with. When Echo was killed Iron man got involved because she had been an avenger for 5 minutes. That is a calculated risk.
    1. But not from all cops, and his relationship with the police will never entirely be non-antagonistic. And that is good because there is a lot you can do with that that you can't do with superheroes. Take away Spider-Man's risk of ever being hunted by the police and all of that is gone.

    2. The point is that the Avengers have a contract clause as shown in Fraction's run. The fact Iron Man is the one who sometimes enforces it is pedantic.

    3. The same goes for any other superhero from the Stan Lee era. Also it's not just the Avengers that New York's mob in Fraction's run is scared to piss off. They also mention that killing Clint would piss off SHIELD, the government, and many other powerful entities. Point is: being an Avenger grants you a certain amount of status and changes things.

    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    1) Spider-Man conveniently forgets he even HAS an Avengers ID card. Heck, back in the 90's he didn't even how to use it to communicate directly with Moon Knight and called directly to the mansion for assistance.

    2) Iron Man should be the LAST Avenger to ever call out another for going rogue. Armor Wars anyone?

    3) Spider-Man doesn't act like a member of the Avengers. But I assure you, if something ever happened to him, most of the longer-time members as well as ALL of the street level heroes would respond in a New York minute.
    1. Spider-Man consistently forgetting his Avengers ID card would make him look like a klutz. You're essentially saying we should dumb down Spider-Man a bit just so he could be an Avenger.

    2. Same as above point 2.

    3. Same as above point 3.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 01-21-2021 at 09:26 AM.

  7. #247
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    3) Spider-Man doesn't act like a member of the Avengers. But I assure you, if something ever happened to him, most of the longer-time members as well as ALL of the street level heroes would respond in a New York minute.
    Something very similar to this did happen, in Tom Taylor's Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man (2019) #14.
    spoilers:
    Aunt May was in surgery for cancer when Manhattan's power grid totally went out. Divided between waiting for her recovery and patrolling the city, Peter was about to vent his pent-up rage at Shocker when Miles showed up, followed by practically every cape, and Johnny explained they'll patrol the city so that he can be with his Aunt.
    end of spoilers
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  8. #248
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Currently reading Matt Fraction's Hawkeye, and I'm even more convinced than I was before that Spider-Man wouldn't work as an Avenger.

    Reason I say this is because Fraction's take on Hawkeye is in very much Peter Parker-esque. His Clint is played up as a working-class everyman and the book focuses solely on Clint's side of the MU and not anyone else's (Fraction even starts his run by saying "This is what Clint Barton does when he isn't with the Avengers.").

    In the book's defense, it shows that an everyman superhero can be an Avenger and have it feel believable. But it also proves that being an Avenger isn't something trivial, and that it would absolutely affect Spider-Man in ways that no one would not be happy about:

    1. When an Avenger gets caught by the police for acting as vigilante and breaking into a mob-owned club to help someone out (something Spider-Man does all the time), he/she can apparently just tell the cops they are an Avenger and to check his/her pockets for an Avengers ID card. Translate this to Spider-Man comics and it would take the punch out of Spider-Man's relationship to the authorities.

    2. Clint later gets his membership put on probation by Iron Man for going rogue like that (again, something Spider-Man does all the time) and violating the Avengers' clause. This suggests that an Avenger Spider-Man would have certain rules to abide by even when he is not with the Avengers.

    3. The reason New York's mobsters don't want to strike back at Clint is because they're afraid of having a dead Avenger on their hands. At one point they even have a meeting on how to work around this and half the mobsters at that meeting are Spider-Man villains. Surely they would be just as worried of going after Spider-Man if he was a card-carrying Avenger, right?
    Great point.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    Something very similar to this did happen, in Tom Taylor's Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man (2019) #14.
    spoilers:
    Aunt May was in surgery for cancer when Manhattan's power grid totally went out. Divided between waiting for her recovery and patrolling the city, Peter was about to vent his pent-up rage at Shocker when Miles showed up, followed by practically every cape, and Johnny explained they'll patrol the city so that he can be with his Aunt.
    end of spoilers
    That was a heartwarming moment, and one of the reasons I still like Spider-Man having connections with the rest of the MU, even if he's great enough to stand on his own.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #250
    Astonishing Member pageturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    1. But not from all cops, and his relationship with the police will never entirely be non-antagonistic. And that is good because there is a lot you can do with that that you can't do with superheroes. Take away Spider-Man's risk of ever being hunted by the police and all of that is gone.

    2. The point is that the Avengers have a contract clause as shown in Fraction's run. The fact Iron Man is the one who sometimes enforces it is pedantic.

    3. The same goes for any other superhero from the Stan Lee era. Also it's not just the Avengers that New York's mob in Fraction's run is scared to piss off. They also mention that killing Clint would piss off SHIELD, the government, and many other powerful entities. Point is: being an Avenger grants you a certain amount of status and changes things.



    1. Spider-Man consistently forgetting his Avengers ID card would make him look like a klutz. You're essentially saying we should dumb down Spider-Man a bit just so he could be an Avenger.

    2. Same as above point 2.

    3. Same as above point 3.
    Enough Police and fire that he is often welcomed. Being Avenger does not grant you a frictionless life. Maria Hill screwed with them for years. Spiderman has been call ed the best of us by Cap, DD, and Dr Strange. The best of them belongs among them.

    Thor, vision, wanda, and Tony among others have gone further rogue than anything spiderman has done and they are welcomes back always. It does not hold up as a reason he cant work with them.

    He has already been an avenger and has worked with anybody. They already know killing him will bring heat. Clint was dabbling with street crime and he is just a guy he is not fearsome enough ( or I can see them thinking that). Spiderman doesn't sit in HQ playing video games he is out on the street when ever he has free time. He has built up much more willingness to want him dead. That said Kingpin once thanked him because he made a lot of money offering protection against spiderman.

  11. #251
    Astonishing Member pageturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    Something very similar to this did happen, in Tom Taylor's Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man (2019) #14.
    spoilers:
    Aunt May was in surgery for cancer when Manhattan's power grid totally went out. Divided between waiting for her recovery and patrolling the city, Peter was about to vent his pent-up rage at Shocker when Miles showed up, followed by practically every cape, and Johnny explained they'll patrol the city so that he can be with his Aunt.
    end of spoilers
    I think it happened in a what if as well when he was killed others went on the hunt.

  12. #252
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageturner View Post
    I think it happened in a what if as well when he was killed others went on the hunt.
    It should be this one: What if Kraven the Hunter had killed Spider-Man? I read that too. Poor MJ.

    https://www.comixology.com/What-If-1...l-comic/764228

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  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageturner View Post
    Enough Police and fire that he is often welcomed. Being Avenger does not grant you a frictionless life. Maria Hill screwed with them for years. Spiderman has been call ed the best of us by Cap, DD, and Dr Strange. The best of them belongs among them.

    Thor, vision, wanda, and Tony among others have gone further rogue than anything spiderman has done and they are welcomes back always. It does not hold up as a reason he cant work with them.

    He has already been an avenger and has worked with anybody. They already know killing him will bring heat. Clint was dabbling with street crime and he is just a guy he is not fearsome enough ( or I can see them thinking that). Spiderman doesn't sit in HQ playing video games he is out on the street when ever he has free time. He has built up much more willingness to want him dead. That said Kingpin once thanked him because he made a lot of money offering protection against spiderman.
    Interesting and valid points you raise there as well. I concur with your second point in particular, given that many Avengers have gone rogue and done worse than just about anything Spider-Man has been accused of or done himself, so if they can somehow be forgiven and accepted (relatively speaking), it's not a good idea to cast stones from a glass house.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Currently reading Matt Fraction's Hawkeye, and I'm even more convinced than I was before that Spider-Man wouldn't work as an Avenger.

    Reason I say this is because Fraction's take on Hawkeye is in very much Peter Parker-esque. His Clint is played up as a working-class everyman and the book focuses solely on Clint's side of the MU and not anyone else's (Fraction even starts his run by saying "This is what Clint Barton does when he isn't with the Avengers.").

    In the book's defense, it shows that an everyman superhero can be an Avenger and have it feel believable. But it also proves that being an Avenger isn't something trivial, and that it would absolutely affect Spider-Man in ways that no one would not be happy about:

    1. When an Avenger gets caught by the police for acting as vigilante and breaking into a mob-owned club to help someone out (something Spider-Man does all the time), he/she can apparently just tell the cops they are an Avenger and to check his/her pockets for an Avengers ID card. Translate this to Spider-Man comics and it would take the punch out of Spider-Man's relationship to the authorities.

    2. Clint later gets his membership put on probation by Iron Man for going rogue like that (again, something Spider-Man does all the time) and violating the Avengers' clause. This suggests that an Avenger Spider-Man would have certain rules to abide by even when he is not with the Avengers.

    3. The reason New York's mobsters don't want to strike back at Clint is because they're afraid of having a dead Avenger on their hands. At one point they even have a meeting on how to work around this and half the mobsters at that meeting are Spider-Man villains. Surely they would be just as worried of going after Spider-Man if he was a card-carrying Avenger, right?
    While being a Avenger might be a problem for Spider-Man, it would not be a problem for Peter Parker because,

    1. He's a scientist who can contribute to the team
    2. He can act as a supporting character who deals with the research side of things
    3. He doesn't have to be a superhero as an Avenger


    Never understand why Marvel doesn't have Peter Parker using his intellect as a member of the Avengers in a civilian role.

  15. #255
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    1. When an Avenger gets caught by the police for acting as vigilante and breaking into a mob-owned club to help someone out (something Spider-Man does all the time), he/she can apparently just tell the cops they are an Avenger and to check his/her pockets for an Avengers ID card. Translate this to Spider-Man comics and it would take the punch out of Spider-Man's relationship to the authorities.
    Why would Spiderman at this point still have that agonistic relationship with authorities Spiderman has visibly save the city over and over. Even without being an Avenger why wouldn't the authorities do this any way for Spiderman. They would turn a blind eye for Spiderman anyways. The cops still disliking Spiderman in any form is a bad trope. Spiderman was running around saving the city from Trolls,Spiders People, Symbiotes, and Fighting Hydra.This best way to understand what Spiderman is, He is a first responder in Fantasy New York that has bunch of 9/11s

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    2. Clint later gets his membership put on probation by Iron Man for going rogue like that (again, something Spider-Man does all the time) and violating the Avengers' clause. This suggests that an Avenger Spider-Man would have certain rules to abide by even when he is not with the Avengers.
    Spiderman breaking the rules and get in trouble with Avengers sounds like a good story to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    3. The reason New York's mobsters don't want to strike back at Clint is because they're afraid of having a dead Avenger on their hands. At one point they even have a meeting on how to work around this and half the mobsters at that meeting are Spider-Man villains. Surely they would be just as worried of going after Spider-Man if he was a card-carrying Avenger, right?
    Isn't Spiderman a part of the superhero community wouldn't the same thing happen if they kill Spiderman? The Avengers would come after them if they killed Spiderman anyways

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Currently reading Matt Fraction's Hawkeye, and I'm even more convinced than I was before that Spider-Man wouldn't work as an Avenger.

    In the book's defense, it shows that an everyman superhero can be an Avenger and have it feel believable. But it also proves that being an Avenger isn't something trivial, and that it would absolutely affect Spider-Man in ways that no one would not be happy about:
    A lot of your logic here doesn't apply to Spiderman who has been a clearly hero in Marvel for years. And your statement about people not being happy only applies to people who want Superhero to perpetual be stuck in certain state. Spiderman would absolute work as an Avenger but yes it does mean some slight changes in the status quo and tropes. The only question is if you are person who doesn't think that status quo should not have already been adjusted "the Spiderman is a menace" "The Parker Luck thing" are phases he should grow out as character. You can't read the collective of Marvel books and believe the Authorities would be antagonistic to Spiderman, You can't read collective of Marvel books and believe that Spiderman is still the down out everyman. Spiderman doesn't work as Avenger only if you believe Spiderman evolving into something slight different will not work long term.

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