Why is Spider-Man excluded from The Avengers, X-Men, and FF?

[Snoop Dogg]

This idea of being in the Avengers as some kind of progress is absurd.

Captain America was a World War 2 soldier, fought in the US Army alongside generals like Terry Allen, Patton, Eisenhower and Commander in Chief FDR.

thor >>> the japanese internment guys

[Agent Z]

Those were the original members of the team though, so from the get-go they set up the pedigree of the team and defined what it meant to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes."

Hank would've always had bipolar disorder, but I guess the public forum of The Avengers and the stress of that and his relationship with Jan just exacerbated it.

Saying the Avengers ruined Hank is as absurd as blaming his problems on Janet.

[PCN24454]

This idea of being in the Avengers as some kind of progress is absurd.

Captain America was a World War 2 soldier, fought in the US Army alongside generals like Terry Allen, Patton, Eisenhower and Commander in Chief FDR. Are we going to pretend that Cap going from serving in the US Army to the Avengers is some kind of "progression". What about Thor, Prince of Asgard who led the Einerjar in battle numerous times in many wars across the Nine Realms. Is The Avengers a kind of progression for him? I suppose you could argue Avengers represents progression for Tony Stark certainly at least in a moral sense. Being in the Avengers arguably ruined Hank Pym on the other hand and led him to his degradation.

So the way I see it, there's nothing inherent to all of this

Man, you really don't seem to like Tony Stark. Being an Avenger isn't a form of progression for anyone else but him.

Either way, OG Peter was about 7 years younger than Tony while nowadays the age difference between Peter and the other heroes likes to be played up. That's another reason why he's excluded.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Those were the original members of the team though, so from the get-go they set up the pedigree of the team and defined what it meant to be "Earth's Mightiest Heroes."

Hank would've always had bipolar disorder, but I guess the public forum of The Avengers and the stress of that and his relationship with Jan just exacerbated it.

I always took "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" to mean the team is very diverse. You have a WWII veteran, a weapons industrialist, an Asgarian God, a fashion designer, a bipolar scientist that is in many ways similar-but-different from Tony, a King & master tactician, a working-class circus boy, an android, an airforce pilot that knows the Cosmos very well, a spy that operates in more low-key settings, and several mutants involved into politics. With their powers combined, they're the "mightiest" entity on Earth.

That's a similar variety to the one you find on the Justice League, but unlike the Justice League they're more unified. They managed to somewhat form a brotherhood like the X-Men did in spite of all those differences. It's one of the reasons why I like seeing the Avengers together more than I like seeing the Justice League (Superman and Batman's friendship being an exception - I would rank that over anything in the Avengers).

[Revolutionary_Jack]

thor >>> the japanese internment guys

Well Tony interned superheroes in the Negative Zone during CIVIL WAR, so?

Thor and Asgardians are culpable for the actions carried out by the Vikings in their acts of conquest in Dark Ages Europe. Many stories in Aaron's run and Fraction's run shows Thor palling with Vikings and others who worshipped him, which means he likely didn't do a damn thing when these guys went raiding, pillaging, raping and slaving all across the Middle Ages.

The Avengers via Hank Pym creating Ultron are responsible for the genocide of the nation of Slorenia, the depowering of mutankind via the pretender Wanda Maximoff, the death of Goliath during CIVIL WAR at the hands of the illegal clone, and also the genocide of an entire alternate Earth during the Incursions.

[Huntsman Spider]

Well Tony interned superheroes in the Negative Zone during CIVIL WAR, so?

Thor and Asgardians are culpable for the actions carried out by the Vikings in their acts of conquest in Dark Ages Europe. Many stories in Aaron's run and Fraction's run shows Thor palling with Vikings and others who worshipped him, which means he likely didn't do a damn thing when these guys went raiding, pillaging, raping and slaving all across the Middle Ages.

The Avengers via Hank Pym creating Ultron are responsible for the genocide of the nation of Slorenia, the depowering of mutankind via the pretender Wanda Maximoff, the death of Goliath during CIVIL WAR at the hands of the illegal clone, and also the genocide of an entire alternate Earth during the Incursions.

While that would sound like "guilt by association," the fact that with the exception of Hank Pym (who later fused with and became subsumed by Ultron), most of those characters remain in good "heroic" standing according to the established narrative doesn't necessarily speak well to the overall moral character of the Avengers. Hell, I'm one of those people who think that Civil War should've had more permanent consequences even after Norman Osborn's Dark Reign ended with his ill-advised Siege of Asgard, since the pro-registration side's actions were a complete and unforgivable betrayal of their erstwhile comrades and everything they stood for as heroes, so for them to be taken back into the fold with an attitude of "let's let bygones be bygones" . . . it's no wonder the Revengers assembled against them.

[Frontier]

Thor and Asgardians are culpable for the actions carried out by the Vikings in their acts of conquest in Dark Ages Europe. Many stories in Aaron's run and Fraction's run shows Thor palling with Vikings and others who worshipped him, which means he likely didn't do a damn thing when these guys went raiding, pillaging, raping and slaving all across the Middle Ages.

Granted, several Thor fans didn't really appreciate how Aaron and Fraction tended to characterize Thor and Asgard during their runs. Because, y'know, an in-character Thor probably would care about all that stuff.

Although Aaron also wrote Jane Foster help with the sacking of Egypt in a Generations issue, so I guess he wasn't thinking too deeply about the implications.

The Avengers via Hank Pym creating Ultron are responsible for the genocide of the nation of Slorenia, the depowering of mutankind via the pretender Wanda Maximoff, the death of Goliath during CIVIL WAR at the hands of the illegal clone, and also the genocide of an entire alternate Earth during the Incursions.

Let's not use that language with Wanda around here.

Hank had nothing to do with Goliath's death. That was Skrull Hank. Hank was devastated when he found out what happened, since Bill Foster was one of his closest friends.

[Huntsman Spider]

Granted, several Thor fans didn't really appreciate how Aaron and Fraction tended to characterize Thor and Asgard during their runs. Because, y'know, an in-character Thor probably would care about all that stuff.

Although Aaron also wrote Jane Foster help with the sacking of Egypt in a Generations issue, so I guess he wasn't thinking too deeply about the implications.

Let's not use that language with Wanda around here.

Hank had nothing to do with Goliath's death. That was Skrull Hank. Hank was devastated when he found out what happened, since Bill Foster was one of his closest friends.

That's a fair point, at least with Pym. That said, it's still not a good look overall that the Avengers continue to count among their membership characters responsible for the crimes and/or atrocities previously recounted by Revolutionary_Jack without any real or substantial consequences for those crimes and/or atrocities.

[Frontier]

That's a fair point, at least with Pym. That said, it's still not a good look overall that the Avengers continue to count among their membership characters responsible for the crimes and/or atrocities previously recounted by Revolutionary_Jack without any real or substantial consequences for those crimes and/or atrocities.

Well, Tony lost his status, his memories, and subsequently became almost a different person from Civil War Tony.

Wanda tried to make up for what she did but lost the ability to do so. It was the X-Men who refrained from wanting anything more to do with her right down to actually punishing her.

Reed isn't an Avenger.

The Incursions were arguably made up for by restoring the main Earth and Reed and the Future Foundation dedicating themselves to remaking the worlds using Franklin's powers.

[Huntsman Spider]

Well, Tony lost his status, his memories, and subsequently became almost a different person from Civil War Tony.

Wanda tried to make up for what she did but lost the ability to do so. It was the X-Men who refrained from wanting anything more to do with her right down to actually punishing her.

Reed isn't an Avenger.

The Incursions were arguably made up for by restoring the main Earth and Reed and the Future Foundation dedicating themselves to remaking the worlds using Franklin's powers.

Fair arguments, I'll admit, and no, Reed isn't an Avenger, that much is true. That said, you'd think he'd be on the outs with the rest of the Four after Civil War, though I suppose that was what his and Sue's sabbatical was about, rebuilding that connection and making some form of amends to them, at least.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I try not to hold the events of Civil War against anyone. That story was the One More Day for a lot of Marvel's characters. It's an (in)famous story that made a lot of characters act out of character and have them do shady things.

I'm aware it's not always practical to completely ignore an event just because someone was out of character, but it works with Civil War because no one in the MU is feeling the consequences of that today. It's not like House of M where the consequences went on for years.

[Frontier]

I try not to hold the events of Civil War against anyone. That story was the One More Day for a lot of Marvel's characters. It's an (in)famous story that made a lot of characters act out of character and have them do shady things.

I'm aware it's not always practical to completely ignore an event just because someone was out of character, but it works with Civil War because no one in the MU is feeling the consequences of that today. It's not like House of M where the consequences went on for years.

Same with Time Runs Out where there was, like, no bad blood among anyone.

Even Steve and Tony who literally spent the last minutes of the world trying to kill each other.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I try not to hold the events of Civil War against anyone. That story was the One More Day for a lot of Marvel's characters. It's an (in)famous story that made a lot of characters act out of character and have them do shady things.

I'm aware it's not always practical to completely ignore an event just because someone was out of character, but it works with Civil War because no one in the MU is feeling the consequences of that today. It's not like House of M where the consequences went on for years.

I get that, but you know if someone is trying to make a big deal out of being the Avengers...or insisting there's a shine on the badge, it's worth bringing up CW.

One post in response to me pointing out that Steve Rogers wouldn't consider going from the US Army during World War II to the Avengers as any kind of progression...brought up Japanese Internment Camps during WW2 with the idea that the Avengers don't have red in their ledger by comparison. But if you track the stuff that happened in comics it's not a good look.

I mean I didn't bring up Avengers #200, so gimme some credit.

[Huntsman Spider]

I get that, but you know if someone is trying to make a big deal out of being the Avengers...or insisting there's a shine on the badge, it's worth bringing up CW.

One post in response to me pointing out that Steve Rogers wouldn't consider going from the US Army during World War II to the Avengers as any kind of progression...brought up Japanese Internment Camps during WW2 with the idea that the Avengers don't have red in their ledger by comparison. But if you track the stuff that happened in comics it's not a good look.

I mean I didn't bring up Avengers #200, so gimme some credit.

That atrocity was already settled in Avengers Annual #10, much kudos to Chris Claremont for that, but I'd consider it more of a black mark on the company as a whole for letting that go to print in the first place.

[pageturner]

Being part of the Avengers and the FF isn't progress.

not if he is just reset back to a college students who cant seem to handle any aspect of his life.