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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The first writer happens to be Stan Lee himself. And I am sure there's a phrase that goes "while all writers are equal, Stan Lee is more equal than anyone else".

    And if Lee's attitude was that Spider-Man is too good for the Avengers, it counts for more I think, or it should at any rate.

  2. #227
    Astonishing Member pageturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    No it wouldn't.



    The first writer happens to be Stan Lee himself. And I am sure there's a phrase that goes "while all writers are equal, Stan Lee is more equal than anyone else".

    And if Lee's attitude was that Spider-Man is too good for the Avengers, it counts for more I think, or it should at any rate.



    You're dodging the point. If all Otto needed was the seed capital to build a business empire, he could have done it years ago. When he was a middle class white scientist for most of his life, working on radioactive material (which essentially means a huge salary by the way) which he could easily have parlayed to get a bank loan to start a business and attract investors. After he became Otto and became a criminal, he could have used his stolen money or all the fancy tech he uses to build his underwater bases and translate that to legitimate ventures. I mean Otto's lack of business acumen was a point in JMS' run where he finds a gig working for a corporate shark and then gets played by him.

    The story essentially runs on the sunday cartoon premise that because a bad guy takes over Spider-Man's body he can automatically be a better businessman simply because he's evil.



    Or if you want a song and dance here's one by my favorite band, The Kinks
    It does unless you change the criteria you listed they don't qualify for any of those. Neither does Luke Cage or Hawkeye among others.

    Stan is dead and his "writing" is ancient. No other or current writer should feel weighed down by it. Past writing is a framework not a prison. That is why he has been successfully been on several teams and can be again.

    You obviously know nothing about finance or raising capital of you think it is that easy. Otto has been shown have difficulty dealing with people from his college days. There is not much to substantiate he could have worked with the proper parties to develop a company. When he tired to be literally someone else opportunities arose.

  3. #228
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pageturner View Post
    You obviously know nothing about finance or raising capital of you think it is that easy.
    Between the average US Citizen from a poor background and a US citizen who is A) White, B) Middle-Class, C) Nuclear Physicist and Specialist. It's definitely easier for Otto prior to his accident.

    There is not much to substantiate he could have worked with the proper parties to develop a company.
    That's...kind of my point. Dr. Octopus had no chops to start a buisness nor any knowhow. As such him starting Parker Industries is totally unbelievable.

  4. #229
    Astonishing Member pageturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Between the average US Citizen from a poor background and a US citizen who is A) White, B) Middle-Class, C) Nuclear Physicist and Specialist. It's definitely easier for Otto prior to his accident.



    That's...kind of my point. Dr. Octopus had no chops to start a buisness nor any knowhow. As such him starting Parker Industries is totally unbelievable.
    Non of those categories (well except white) give him a leg up. He is not shown having a network to raise capital. He is also not shown to have any products to build a company upon.

    Except when he changed his behavior as Peter, he maintained healthy relationships as Peter and benefited from those relationships. Otto always lacked those. He tried and for a short time, and did have that as Peter. All the difference in the world. Plus you cannot underestimate the benefit of a rich uncle.
    Last edited by pageturner; 12-14-2020 at 02:47 PM.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Falcon, She-Hulk, Wonder Man, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, 3D Man, Justice, Firestar, Firebird, Silver Claw, Vision, Living Lightning.

    We're really going to claim that all of these guys are authoritarian?

    Frankly, I feel like this interpretation of the Avengers seems based less how they actually behave in the comics for most of their history and more on shallow understandings on what authoritarianism and elitism actually

    And let's not forget that Tony initially fought against the SHRA. Judging these guys by how they behave in events based on the heroes fighting each other is disingenuous.



    See above.

    The Avengers were not the ones who wanted to use a cosmic entity's power for themselves and took over the world in that story.
    I said there is an element of authoritarianism and elitism to a lot of the Avengers, not all of them. The majority of Avengers aren't authoritarians but have a bit more of that than a character like Spider-Man does.

    Where they offered him his help no strings attached and he refused and then came to save him from the Sinister 12 anyway.
    They asked him to go public with his identity and when he refused, guys like Iron Man mocked him for it. This was also in the middle of Peter having a panic attack over his aunt.

    How is that authoritarian?
    It's elitist. A guy like Spider-Man is stronger than most Avengers, so on what grounds can they say that? Or another example is someone like Batman, who deals with "lower crimes" all the time but is still a JL member and the second most respected superhero in his world.

    I don't know what reason they had for believing that but either way, Peter unmasking was not Tony's idea.
    It absolutely was. Tony suggested it to him in the first place.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 12-15-2020 at 06:49 AM.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    They asked him to go public with his identity and when he refused, guys like Iron Man mocked him for it. This was also in the middle of Peter having a panic attack over his aunt.
    I think you might be misremembering how that meeting went.

    RCO016_1468805287ee.jpg



    At most, Steve and Tony merely suggest going public but otherwise they were fine with him keeping his identity a secret. Peter was the one who refused their help even after
    Scott Lang said they had no interest in his secret identity. And then he left. And even then, they still came to his rescue.

    It's elitist.
    It's elitist to say some things are out of their wheel house?

    A guy like Spider-Man is stronger than most Avengers,
    I'd say it's actually the opposite but that's getting a little too far into rumbles territory.


    It absolutely was. Tony suggested it to him in the first place.
    Suggested not forced.

  7. #232
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    It's really funny how old Peter rejects their invitation, but new Peter isn't really invited.

  8. #233
    Astonishing Member pageturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    It's really funny how old Peter rejects their invitation, but new Peter isn't really invited.
    Worse was when the refigured the team and Spiderman and Wolverine are off to the side. Spiderman asks if they are still on the team and Wolverine is like I don't think so and they leave.

  9. #234
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    I wouldn't go so far as to say the Avengers are elitist but they did start out as a superhero club. They had a clubhouse (Avengers mansion), a charter and you needed to pass scrutiny to join.

    Being an Avenger has never been about being the most powerful, rich or intelligent though. Plenty of Avengers have not been any of those things.

    Spidey's best stuff has never been in the Avengers and it is unlikely it ever will be. Spidey has his own rogues gallery and supporting cast in his own comics that bring far more personal stories than the ones in the avengers comics in which Spider-Man mostly acts as comic relief.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I think you might be misremembering how that meeting went.

    RCO016_1468805287ee.jpg



    At most, Steve and Tony merely suggest going public but otherwise they were fine with him keeping his identity a secret. Peter was the one who refused their help even after
    Scott Lang said they had no interest in his secret identity. And then he left. And even then, they still came to his rescue.
    They were the ones initially hostile towards him and Tony in the next panel cracks a joke about how secret identities are archaic. Spider-Man is partly at fault too for snapping but that was after the situation escalated.

    Also the Avengers showed up because MJ called Nick Fury, who called the Avengers.

    It's elitist to say some things are out of their wheel house?
    That isn't what "above my pay grade" means.

    I'd say it's actually the opposite but that's getting a little too far into rumbles territory.
    Ability-wise (and this is still true even if you were to include accessories like Falcon's wings), Spider-Man is stronger than most Avengers. Exceptions off the top of my head would be Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, Vision, and Scarlet Witch.

    Suggested not forced.
    Not much of a difference when you work with/for Tony and he has leverage over you.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    They were the ones initially hostile towards him and Tony in the next panel cracks a joke about how secret identities are archaic. Spider-Man is partly at fault too for snapping but that was after the situation escalated.
    They thought he was an intruder because he'd forcefully broken in. When they realized it was a misunderstanding, they backed off.

    Also the Avengers showed up because MJ called Nick Fury, who called the Avengers.
    Again, this doesn't change that the Avengers still helped him and were willing to.

    That isn't what "above my pay grade" means.
    "to be something that a person does not have enough knowledge or authority to do: She declined to comment on the controversial tape, saying "That's above my pay grade."

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...sb-s-pay-grade

    And when have the Avengers ever said this anyway?



    Ability-wise (and this is still true even if you were to include accessories like Falcon's wings), Spider-Man is stronger than most Avengers. Exceptions off the top of my head would be Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel, Vision, and Scarlet Witch.
    You're leaving out a lot of people here like She-Hulk, Justice, Firestar, two of the Spider-Women, Red Hulk, Wonder Man, Firebird, Monica Rambeau, Blue Marvel, Living Lightning, Quicksilver, Jack of Harts.

    There is a reason Spider-Man normally doesn't deal with the type of threats the Avengers deal with on a regular basis unless he is working with them.

    Not much of a difference when you work with/for Tony and he has leverage over you.
    So everything Tony does is inherently sinister?

  12. #237
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    He's more of an FF type guy but I've been saying that for the longest. IMHO.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They thought he was an intruder because he'd forcefully broken in. When they realized it was a misunderstanding, they backed off.
    In those same panels you posted, Cap has to tell Pietro to back off even after they established it was Spider-Man and Tony then has to make everything worse by mocking him (which Cap and the rest join in on and go on a tangent about while the guy is experiencing distress and needs urgent help). Simply saying they backed off and listened to him isn't a fully accurate description of what happened.

    Again, this doesn't change that the Avengers still helped him and were willing to.
    It was because MJ gave an anonymous tip that Norman Osborn was planning something at the Vault. Yes, they were able to eventually help him, but they dragged it out too long (and so did Peter, to be fair, but his actions are more understandable because he was under severe duress throughout the story).

    "to be something that a person does not have enough knowledge or authority to do: She declined to comment on the controversial tape, saying "That's above my pay grade."

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...sb-s-pay-grade

    And when have the Avengers ever said this anyway?
    I'll try to find a panel but it comes up here and there. It's usually in regards to" lesser crimes", which heroes stronger than a lot of Avengers have no problem dealing with. It's not because they don't have knowledge or the ability to deal with them.

    It is however a significant worse problem in the MCU. That is where it started and some of that is imported in the comics from time to time.

    You're leaving out a lot of people here like She-Hulk, Justice, Firestar, two of the Spider-Women, Red Hulk, Wonder Man, Firebird, Monica Rambeau, Blue Marvel, Living Lightning, Quicksilver, Jack of Harts.

    There is a reason Spider-Man normally doesn't deal with the type of threats the Avengers deal with on a regular basis unless he is working with them.
    I did say 'off the top of my head' (most of those names you brought are also not "main" Avengers or are derivates of a main Avenger like She-Hulk is).

    Ability-wise, Spider-Man is stronger than at least both Captain Americas, Hank Pym, Janet van Dyne, both Hawkeyes, Black Widow, Black Panther, Beast, Quicksilver, Scott Lang, and the Winter Soldier. Even with some of the other names he probably can't be on par with (Iron Man/Hulk), he can put up a fight. He is also physically stronger than most of the X-Men, who deal with Avengers-level threats all the time. Spider-man not being an Avenger has nothing to do with powersets.

    So everything Tony does is inherently sinister?
    I have no idea where you drew this conclusion from.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 12-18-2020 at 09:35 AM.

  14. #239
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Spider-Man was more of a loaner but that changed 14 to 16 years ago. Now he's more open to collaborating, teaming up, and mentoring younger heroes.

    Plus due to tech and social media superheroes are way closer these days, especially in NYC. Look at how the Avengers and FF have evolved in recent years. How Wakanda has evolved. 70% of the NYC superheroes have a working relationship with each other, if not an outright friendship.

    Hell, Spidey and DD just got on decent terms again.
    The J-man

  15. #240
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    If we think about it, the reason the Avengers and FF collaborate a lot is because they share a lot of the same villains. The same is true for why Spider-Man, Daredevil, The Punisher, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and Iron Fist collaborate a lot.

    Spider-Man's villains mostly sticking to themselves is why Spider-Man also mostly sticks to himself.

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