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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Then I suppose the next logical question is: who are the protagonists in an Avengers book?
    The ideal would be for all of then to contribute to the battle even if one of the Avengers has more reason to be invested in the current battle, the others should have something cool to do or had some characther moments to advance their personal plotlines, problem is that i don't think that many writers know how to do that anymore.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Then I suppose the next logical question is: who are the protagonists in an Avengers book?
    Cap/Thor/Tony.

    Take SIEGE. Big crossover event. Green Goblin/Norman Osborn is the bad guy. You think Spider-Man would be the one to take him down, right, right? Nope it's Thor/Cap/Tony.

    That was the irritating thing about Norman Osborn becoming a Marvel-wide villain, it didn't lead to Spider-Man's elevation in proportion to that. Add in the fact that there were constant jokes about how Norman Osborn and Green Goblin was lame (that's a freaking Steve Ditko design we are talking about, the level of disrespect was galling to me). The implication was that Spider-Man was a loser for having such a lame villain...and it felt weak.

    Somehow Spider-Man Mythos became a central part of Marvel Universe but without actually leading to any real rise in esteem.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Cap/Thor/Tony.

    Take SIEGE. Big crossover event. Green Goblin/Norman Osborn is the bad guy. You think Spider-Man would be the one to take him down, right, right? Nope it's Thor/Cap/Tony.

    That was the irritating thing about Norman Osborn becoming a Marvel-wide villain, it didn't lead to Spider-Man's elevation in proportion to that. Add in the fact that there were constant jokes about how Norman Osborn and Green Goblin was lame (that's a freaking Steve Ditko design we are talking about, the level of disrespect was galling to me). The implication was that Spider-Man was a loser for having such a lame villain...and it felt weak.

    Somehow Spider-Man Mythos became a central part of Marvel Universe but without actually leading to any real rise in esteem.
    To be fair, if Spider-Man actually did defeat him, then he really would just be a Spider-Man villain.

  4. #79
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    The ideal would be for all of then to contribute to the battle even if one of the Avengers has more reason to be invested in the current battle, the others should have something cool to do or had some characther moments to advance their personal plotlines, problem is that i don't think that many writers know how to do that anymore.
    This kind of reminds me of EMH where ostensibly Tony/Iron Man was kind of the lead character since he was the leader of the team and got the most promotion in the Opening and premier? But he never really overshadowed anyone on the team (heck, more often than not he gout outshone and needed saving) especially compared to how they handled Cap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Cap/Thor/Tony.

    Take SIEGE. Big crossover event. Green Goblin/Norman Osborn is the bad guy. You think Spider-Man would be the one to take him down, right, right? Nope it's Thor/Cap/Tony.

    That was the irritating thing about Norman Osborn becoming a Marvel-wide villain, it didn't lead to Spider-Man's elevation in proportion to that. Add in the fact that there were constant jokes about how Norman Osborn and Green Goblin was lame (that's a freaking Steve Ditko design we are talking about, the level of disrespect was galling to me). The implication was that Spider-Man was a loser for having such a lame villain...and it felt weak.

    Somehow Spider-Man Mythos became a central part of Marvel Universe but without actually leading to any real rise in esteem.
    Spider-Man punched him in the face. That was something, right ?
    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    To be fair, if Spider-Man actually did defeat him, then he really would just be a Spider-Man villain.
    I mean, he kind of is at the end of the day.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That was the irritating thing about Norman Osborn becoming a Marvel-wide villain, it didn't lead to Spider-Man's elevation in proportion to that. Add in the fact that there were constant jokes about how Norman Osborn and Green Goblin was lame (that's a freaking Steve Ditko design we are talking about, the level of disrespect was galling to me). The implication was that Spider-Man was a loser for having such a lame villain...and it felt weak.

    Somehow Spider-Man Mythos became a central part of Marvel Universe but without actually leading to any real rise in esteem.
    Meh. *Green Goblin* was a Spider-Man villain, and that tale's been told, and Peter won.

    Norman Osbourne the back-from-the-dead crazy billionaire politician/businessman is just a two-bit wannabe Lex Luthor ripoff and the Avengers can have him.

    Peter was done with him anyway, and it just makes everyone else look like chumps that someone Peter curb-stomped years ago, when he was a teenager, is giving them such hard time now.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Meh. *Green Goblin* was a Spider-Man villain, and that tale's been told, and Peter won.
    By this logic, Doctor Doom, Magneto, Thanos, Galactus, Loki and others are also "tales that have been told" since they lost at various times to the Fantastic Four, X-Men, Avengers.

    Norman Osbourne the back-from-the-dead crazy billionaire politician/businessman is just a two-bit wannabe Lex Luthor ripoff and the Avengers can have him.
    Norman Osborn was a crazy businessman and inventor in the '60s at a time when Luthor was some purple jumpsuit clown stealing cakes. Luthor's businessman turn happened in the '80s and 90s (taking influence from Miller's take on Kingpin). So it's not at all accurate that Osborn is some ripoff of Luthor.

    And at the very least, Norman Osborn's time as Head of HAMMER led to better stories than President Luthor ever did.

    Peter was done with him anyway, and it just makes everyone else look like chumps that someone Peter curb-stomped years ago, when he was a teenager, is giving them such hard time now.
    Peter was a teenager from AF#15 to about ASM#31-33 when he went to college. He aged into his 20s gradually and slowly between that and "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" (ASM#121-122). But until ASM#122 in the aftermath of Gwen's death, Spider-Man never won a fight outright against Norman mano-e-mano.

    In his high school years, in the Ditko era, Goblin always escaped and Spider-Man never got one over him. In ASM#39-40 when Goblin unmasked him and revealed himself as Norman, the only reason Peter survived/escaped was because Norman was mentally ill and concerned about his son. Then in the Drug Trilogy, again Peter won by reminding Norman of his humanity. It's only in ASM#122 that Spider-Man outright beats Green Goblin in a straight fight mano-e-mano, both evenly matched no holds' barred.

    So again it's not true that Goblin was someone "Peter curb-stomped years ago, when hew as a teenager". Green Goblin was always a very dangerous, versatile, and intelligent threat. Norman Osborn went 40 years in Marvel publication history without going to jail. That's longer than Doom and Fisk in terms of evading in-panel and on-page justice.

  7. #82
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    This is the point, the Avengers book is a grab bag title up to the whims of the author.

    Any hero can be the protagonist and any villain can be the antagonist .

    Is you wanna see Spidey be an exemplar super hero read his title, but if you want to see how he interacts with a bunch of heroes that he normally doesn't see then read the Avengers.

    This goes for all heroes and their main titles, I know we all love our pet heroes, but so do the writers. I mean that's why the Avengers book vary so wildly author to author, Bendis loved his street level heroes so we got Luke in the Avengers. Hickman loves creating original characters and messing with old concepts so he uses them, Aaron likes using Ghost Rider and thats why he's there.

    There is no protagonist and it is not possible for them all to be it, think of any classical team story they all have baked in tropes e.g. Seven Samurai, Magnificent 7, 13 Assassins, Star Wars, and it goes on and on.

    But they all follow the same trope that was set in the original team up story: Seven Against Thebes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Against_Thebes

    It hasn't changed in over 2000 years, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    This is the point, the Avengers book is a grab bag title up to the whims of the author.
    Truth.

    But the logic of a team book, any team is that every member counts and is important. The Justice League might be about Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman but fundamentally it's about them working together and sometimes in a big moment it will be Flash or Hawkgirl or nowadays, Cyborg I suppose, who saves the day.

    That's also the case with the Fantastic Four where even if Reed is the main hero, every member of the four have had adventures where they saved the day.

    The X-Men have had many adventures that focused on the depth of the team.

    The Avengers are basically the least democratic team I've read in any major comics. Almost always Tony/Cap/Thor hog all the attention and major moments. That was fine when the Avengers were some hopeless litter of rejects but it's not at all fine when they started poaching Spider-Man and treat him with disrespect.

  9. #84
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Truth.

    But the logic of a team book, any team is that every member counts and is important. The Justice League might be about Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman but fundamentally it's about them working together and sometimes in a big moment it will be Flash or Hawkgirl or nowadays, Cyborg I suppose, who saves the day.

    That's also the case with the Fantastic Four where even if Reed is the main hero, every member of the four have had adventures where they saved the day.

    The X-Men have had many adventures that focused on the depth of the team.

    The Avengers are basically the least democratic team I've read in any major comics. Almost always Tony/Cap/Thor hog all the attention and major moments. That was fine when the Avengers were some hopeless litter of rejects but it's not at all fine when they started poaching Spider-Man and treat him with disrespect.
    For sure, the Avengers definitely has a hierarchy.

    Stark and Rogers are the leaders for sure I mean they even pay heroes for their membership




    So membership for some is purely transactional, which I don't think the Justice League ever did. I mean I know Bruce pays for operational costs, but I don't think he writes a check to Wonder Woman.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Yeah true, my educated guess as to why Spidey is the comic relief is because there simply needs to be one.

    How many serious characters can you have on a large roster of very serious characters?

    The comparison with JLA and Avengers is a bit apples to oranges since the JLA has a much smaller cast of characters as opposed to Avengers which has a rotating cast every arc and most of them are deadly serious.

    So characters like Spidey play a crucial role in raising the morale with this quips.
    He can make jokes just fine, that's not the problem, problem is that he doesn't do much more than be the guy who makes jokes.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Peter: I knee that you would do that, so i did this.
    Otto: Ah but i knew that would knew that i would do that, so i planed for this
    Peter: But i knew that would knew that i would know about this, so now i'm going to.

    Kinda lol.

    To think that was one of the times Slott decided to make Peter smart, which, while yeah, he looked really competent and Otto was smarter, it's so weird 'cause he doesn't look like the same character who's incompetent and needs someone else to save him lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    The ideal would be for all of then to contribute to the battle even if one of the Avengers has more reason to be invested in the current battle, the others should have something cool to do or had some characther moments to advance their personal plotlines, problem is that i don't think that many writers know how to do that anymore.
    I doubt writers even want to do those things, too many times those team books sound like it's just about pushing their favorite pets (Like X-Men Gold and Kitty), and while this definitely did happen before with good writers (Claremont and Storm), at least they used to try more to make other characters do cool shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That was the irritating thing about Norman Osborn becoming a Marvel-wide villain, it didn't lead to Spider-Man's elevation in proportion to that. Add in the fact that there were constant jokes about how Norman Osborn and Green Goblin was lame (that's a freaking Steve Ditko design we are talking about, the level of disrespect was galling to me). The implication was that Spider-Man was a loser for having such a lame villain...and it felt weak.
    That's a weird implication to make when this "lame" villain was the big bad of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    To be fair, if Spider-Man actually did defeat him, then he really would just be a Spider-Man villain.
    So what? If Spidey took him down, Norman was still a threat before that to everything else.

    That'd be like saying that a story that has Brainiac showing up, needing every super team ever to slow him down, then Supes is the one who stops him, and then say "Oh he was just a Superman villain" lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    For sure, the Avengers definitely has a hierarchy.

    Stark and Rogers are the leaders for sure I mean they even pay heroes for their membership

    Lol the Spidey panel, where's that from?

    So membership for some is purely transactional, which I don't think the Justice League ever did. I mean I know Bruce pays for operational costs, but I don't think he writes a check to Wonder Woman.
    While I'm not sure if it was in a League where Bruce was backing it, there's at least one story where it's confirmed Diana gets paid, 'cause in that story I think some nonsense happened for her pay to be delayed and she worked in a taco store or some shit.

  11. #86
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Lol the Spidey panel, where's that from?



    While I'm not sure if it was in a League where Bruce was backing it, there's at least one story where it's confirmed Diana gets paid, 'cause in that story I think some nonsense happened for her pay to be delayed and she worked in a taco store or some shit.
    LOL, that is so funny I cannot imagine Diana yelling at Bruce, "Where is my money, Bruce!"

    The Spidey panel is from Hickman's Avengers; great read.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I don't know if this was a Bendis scene, but I remember one bit where the Avengers (with Spider-Man) are facing giant octopus-walker robots created by Dr Octopus, and one of the Avengers (Cap? Tony?) is "He's one of your villains, Parker, what do we need to know about him?" and Peter is "Well, I like to mention the stupid hair, and he's really sensitive about his weight..."

    On the one hand, it reads as typical Parker banter. On the other hand, it's exactly the issue with him on teams. He's crazy smart, very adaptable, and super experienced with the use of his abilities (and how to use the terrain / environment to his advantage). But he has zero idea how to contribute the sort of tactical breakdown that was being sought in that moment. He flies by the seat of his pants, and, thanks to his brain, his experience and his powers (especially that spider-sense and those reflexes!), that totally works for him, but when teamed up with folks that can't dodge bullets, don't have a superhuman danger sense, etc. he's not really able to adjust his thinking for their various capabilities, and his advice isn't terribly relevant.

    And that's totally fun. Spidey *isn't* Cap. I kind of loved that scene for showcasing how his priorities in a fight with Octavius were so not relevant to the sort of tactical sitrep that was being sought.
    As someone else said, this is legit the best CBR post on this topic. Well done! *clap clap*

    I actually didn't realize it until reading this...Peter is a horrible team player.

    It might actually be his one unaddressed character flaw. It's Spider-Man's version of "Batman is actually a horrible father if you think about it but no writer ever addresses it or if they do it's very brief."

    And honestly, it should be addressed. A teenage Spider-Man having this issue is fine...but 25+ Spider-Man not being able to function in teams (forget joining one...simply functioning in one) is arguably irresponsible of Peter.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 11-22-2020 at 11:44 PM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Cap/Thor/Tony.

    Take SIEGE. Big crossover event. Green Goblin/Norman Osborn is the bad guy. You think Spider-Man would be the one to take him down, right, right? Nope it's Thor/Cap/Tony.

    That was the irritating thing about Norman Osborn becoming a Marvel-wide villain, it didn't lead to Spider-Man's elevation in proportion to that. Add in the fact that there were constant jokes about how Norman Osborn and Green Goblin was lame (that's a freaking Steve Ditko design we are talking about, the level of disrespect was galling to me). The implication was that Spider-Man was a loser for having such a lame villain...and it felt weak.

    Somehow Spider-Man Mythos became a central part of Marvel Universe but without actually leading to any real rise in esteem.
    Did you miss this part?


  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    By this logic, Doctor Doom, Magneto, Thanos, Galactus, Loki and others are also "tales that have been told" since they lost at various times to the Fantastic Four, X-Men, Avengers.



    Norman Osborn was a crazy businessman and inventor in the '60s at a time when Luthor was some purple jumpsuit clown stealing cakes. Luthor's businessman turn happened in the '80s and 90s (taking influence from Miller's take on Kingpin). So it's not at all accurate that Osborn is some ripoff of Luthor.

    And at the very least, Norman Osborn's time as Head of HAMMER led to better stories than President Luthor ever did.



    Peter was a teenager from AF#15 to about ASM#31-33 when he went to college. He aged into his 20s gradually and slowly between that and "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" (ASM#121-122). But until ASM#122 in the aftermath of Gwen's death, Spider-Man never won a fight outright against Norman mano-e-mano.

    In his high school years, in the Ditko era, Goblin always escaped and Spider-Man never got one over him. In ASM#39-40 when Goblin unmasked him and revealed himself as Norman, the only reason Peter survived/escaped was because Norman was mentally ill and concerned about his son. Then in the Drug Trilogy, again Peter won by reminding Norman of his humanity. It's only in ASM#122 that Spider-Man outright beats Green Goblin in a straight fight mano-e-mano, both evenly matched no holds' barred.

    So again it's not true that Goblin was someone "Peter curb-stomped years ago, when hew as a teenager". Green Goblin was always a very dangerous, versatile, and intelligent threat. Norman Osborn went 40 years in Marvel publication history without going to jail. That's longer than Doom and Fisk in terms of evading in-panel and on-page justice.
    When did Doom ever go to jail?

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Truth.

    But the logic of a team book, any team is that every member counts and is important. The Justice League might be about Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman but fundamentally it's about them working together and sometimes in a big moment it will be Flash or Hawkgirl or nowadays, Cyborg I suppose, who saves the day.

    That's also the case with the Fantastic Four where even if Reed is the main hero, every member of the four have had adventures where they saved the day.

    The X-Men have had many adventures that focused on the depth of the team.

    The Avengers are basically the least democratic team I've read in any major comics. Almost always Tony/Cap/Thor hog all the attention and major moments. That was fine when the Avengers were some hopeless litter of rejects but it's not at all fine when they started poaching Spider-Man and treat him with disrespect.
    I think you're confusing the JL comic for the JL show. More often than not, Superman and Batman are the ones who save the day and I can't think of an instance where someone else did that. Not without help from Superman or Batman.

    The Avengers have had the likes of Luke Cage as team leader. When has the League ever done something on that level? Cyclops has been the leader for the majority of the team and Wolverine's constant spotlight-hogging is practically a running gag. The X-Men have a handful of characters who matter to the story same as any other team. The Avengers have also had stories where other characters did get development and save the day like Hank, Carol, Wasp or Monica Rambeau.

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