Superior Spider-Man #11

[Vegeta]

Honestly, I was only picking up Superior (volume 1) for 2 reasons. It was the title that replaced Amazing, a book that I have consistently purchased since the 90's (even when it was briefly retitled "the Amazing Scarlet Spider.") And the comic had Peter Parker's ghost still actively involved in trying to retake his body. I honestly didn't care for Otto in the role and I didn't like that for the whole premise to work EVERY supporting character had to be dumbed down to absolutely oblivious.
(The only one who knew something was immediately up was Wolverine, and then we got some bullcrap where a telepath wouldn't read Otto's mind and discover the truth because she was afraid of legal action being taken against her?!?)
With that said, the current run has been much better written, but the sales just are not there. Plus, do we really need another "edgy" Spider-Man running around?

[Prof. Warren]

Just pointing out a head-to-head comparison, in a month where Superior Octopus was on the stands in two different versions, there was a clear winner and it was Life Story #6 which essentially condemns the idea of Otto being redemptive especially given the means used for that.

That is a laughable comparison.

Life Story was an acclaimed mini with a great deal of momentum to it, with the final issue promising to tell the end of Peter Parker's life.

Gage's SSM was a series that continued SpOck's story past the point where his and Peter's world were deeply intertwined.

Which one do you think is going to do better?

Unless you're an imbecile, you pick the former before either book hits the shelves. It doesn't even require any serious analytical thought. It's just common sense and has nothing to do with reader's preference for an evil Doc Ock over a redeemed one.

SSM was always going to have limited legs once the initial story was brought to a close. But that it was a success at the time and that the character was well-liked enough to continue on and have a few encores before the curtain fell for good is undeniable.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I would agree that a monster the scale of Otto would not deserve the chance of redemption, even if they might be capable of it.

Well on that much we have consensus.

Because the Silver Age ended ~35 years ago.

Did bank robberies and blowing stuff up stop in the Silver Age or do they in fact not continue to happen?

I always think the point of Otto is that he's a gangster and scientist. He's abusing his intellect and gifts for the most pettiest actions and activities. That in itself is interesting. We tend to think that mad scientists are lofty cultured people, that they are "above" certain things, or they'd have lofty ideological aims, but Otto craps on all of that. This guy spent a lot of time building crime empires and fighting gang wars with Hammerhead and the Owl among others.

Honestly, I was only picking up Superior (volume 1) for 2 reasons. It was the title that replaced Amazing, a book that I have consistently purchased since the 90's (even when it was briefly retitled "the Amazing Scarlet Spider.") And the comic had Peter Parker's ghost still actively involved in trying to retake his body. I honestly didn't care for Otto in the role and I didn't like that for the whole premise to work EVERY supporting character had to be dumbed down to absolutely oblivious.

No arguments here. I think this was by and large the biggest issue people had with Superior. The latter "EVERY supporting character had to be dumbed down" is a blatant example of writers putting characters under the bus for the sake of plot.

With that said, the current run has been much better written, but the sales just are not there.

Yeah Gage is on the whole a decent writer with solid skills. I liked Spider-Geddon, far more than the original Spider-Verse event, FWIW.

Which one do you think is going to do better?

So we can't make excuses for success but we must make excuses for failure. If I say Superior's success are down to factors outside the story, I am accused of denigrating the merit of the work (maybe I am). But when I point out that the current Superior series has been a bust, the argument is that it was expected to not do well?

I brought up Life Story #6 solely for the fact that it's the only other title in the market to feature the Superior Otto. It wasn't the only reference either. I also brought up FNSM by Tom Taylor which was also a second series with a projected short-run but has gotten an extended lease before wrapping up, which Gage's series hasn't gotten. I pointed out that an AU video-game tie in has sold better. I point out other monthly titles (which another poster said) like Immortal Hulk and others also did well. Fact is Gage's series has been in tailspin...i.e. each issue has sold lower than the previous one. It's monthly numbers drop issue-by-issue. Whereas FNSM after plateauing after launch has maintained the same rate monthly. Why do you not address these other references?

So that strongly suggests (not definitively proves since this is just me interpreting the data) that the Superior concept on itself doesn't sell. Especially so in a market where it didn't get special favor and special pleading, and a giant spotlight entirely for itself.

[AlexCampy89]

?

So that strongly suggests (not definitively proves since this is just me interpreting the data) that the Superior concept on itself doesn't sell. Especially so in a market where it didn't get special favor and special pleading, and a giant spotlight entirely for itself.

The original Slott's superior run was good (not perfect, but good) and sold well.


Maybe it's not the Superior concept not to sell well, but rather the simple fact that redundant, repeated, recycled ideas don't sell.

Every good idea is copy-pasted after a few years.
Scarlet Spider. Superior. Return of 2099. Spider-verse. Spider-Gwen. Miles Morales.


Sometimes they sell well and/or are well received.
Some other times the audience would rather go with something truly new and fresh, which is hard and will get harder for writers to achieve, considering the almost 60 years of editorial life of the character.

[SuperiorIronman]

There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of Superior Spider-man. Absolutely nothing. But this volume failed for a variety of reasons already outlined and I think we're in a bit of a consensus on that. If we had an actual case against "sinister Spider-men" Venom, Scarlet Spider, 2099 (to a lesser degree) wouldn't have been nearly as successful as it is.

This current volume's issues have less to do with the content of the book and more with how it existed on the market. It's a good book that unfortunately nobody was buying. It doesn't equate to a return to status-quo to salvage anything seeing as we know it does work and that this was the most relevant Otto had been since Spider-man 2.

[Huntsman Spider]

There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of Superior Spider-man. Absolutely nothing. But this volume failed for a variety of reasons already outlined and I think we're in a bit of a consensus on that. If we had an actual case against "sinister Spider-men" Venom, Scarlet Spider, 2099 (to a lesser degree) wouldn't have been nearly as successful as it is.

This current volume's issues have less to do with the content of the book and more with how it existed on the market. It's a good book that unfortunately nobody was buying. It doesn't equate to a return to status-quo to salvage anything seeing as we know it does work and that this was the most relevant Otto had been since Spider-man 2.

At least with 2099, his setting was an equally sinister future where sinister megacorporations dominated the world, so he fit in pretty well with that aesthetic.

[boots]

Just pointing out a head-to-head comparison, in a month where Superior Octopus was on the stands in two different versions, there was a clear winner and it was Life Story #6 which essentially condemns the idea of Otto being redemptive especially given the means used for that.

this would probably make more sense if anyone actually knew otto was LS #6

all in all, i think if the character is repugnant to you, then it makes complete sense that the superior take is distasteful. but that's also a less fluid approach to characters than the majority modern readership appears to take

[boots]

honest question- do characters who are essentially variations on existing ones ever tend to sell for long alongside the "prime" hero's book?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

this would probably make more sense if anyone actually knew otto was LS #6

People actually knew who Otto was in Superior Spider-Man and Gage's series declined in sales issue-by-issue.

honest question- do characters who are essentially variations on existing ones ever tend to sell for long alongside the "prime" hero's book?

Venom has. Historically Supergirl sold very well too in the 50s through 70s.

And Miles Morales has been a consistent seller.

[boots]

People actually knew who Otto was in Superior Spider-Man and Gage's series declined in sales issue-by-issue.

that's...kinda...well...not the point.

i'd be more in favour of an argument that says: otto was not enough to sell "superior" and had next to no impact on sales of "life story"

an argument that people flocked to "life story" to slake their thirst for a good old fashioned otto tale is going to be a hard sell.

Venom has. Historically Supergirl sold very well too in the 50s through 70s.

And Miles Morales has been a consistent seller.

not the greatest strike rate then.

how long did venom last? my memory as a little one was of a bunch of limited series.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

how long did venom last? my memory as a little one was of a bunch of limited series.

Venom has been in continuous publication for a while recently. In both the Flash Thompson and Brock versions. The Flash Thompson as Agent Venom went for 47 monthly issues (i.e. a month shy of four years) before being relaunched with Eddie for a 22 issue run by Cullen Bunn, followed by the current Cates' run which is 18 issues ongoing.

That's 87 issues.

[Agent Z]

Magneto? When? (I honestly do not recall.) Doom, oh, yeah.

Fatal Attractions where he detonates an EMP across the globe.
The execution of a Russian submarine crew.
I also recall him enslaving denizens of the Savage Land.

[boots]

Venom has been in continuous publication for a while recently. In both the Flash Thompson and Brock versions. The Flash Thompson as Agent Venom went for 47 monthly issues (i.e. a month shy of four years) before being relaunched with Eddie for a 22 issue run by Cullen Bunn, followed by the current Cates' run which is 18 issues ongoing.

That's 87 issues.

oh thats right. i forgot that existed

[Prof. Warren]

So we can't make excuses for success but we must make excuses for failure.

What failure?

SSM is a satellite Spidey book. They traditionally perform at a certain level, even the ones that star Peter himself.

When titles like Spectacular or Friendly Neighborhood or Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider are cancelled, it's not so much an example of failure but of books having temporarily run their course.

Clearly, Marvel's expectations for SSM was not that it was going to sell at the same level of a mini-series that had a hot writer and a novel hook to it.

If I say Superior's success are down to factors outside the story, I am accused of denigrating the merit of the work (maybe I am). But when I point out that the current Superior series has been a bust, the argument is that it was expected to not do well?

SSM was obviously not expected to be a long-running series. With the recent issue, it's pretty clear that this was intended as a means of getting Otto to a certain place for the sake of future stories without taking up space in ASM to do so.

I brought up Life Story #6 solely for the fact that it's the only other title in the market to feature the Superior Otto. It wasn't the only reference either. I also brought up FNSM by Tom Taylor which was also a second series with a projected short-run but has gotten an extended lease before wrapping up, which Gage's series hasn't gotten. I pointed out that an AU video-game tie in has sold better. I point out other monthly titles (which another poster said) like Immortal Hulk and others also did well. Fact is Gage's series has been in tailspin...i.e. each issue has sold lower than the previous one. It's monthly numbers drop issue-by-issue. Whereas FNSM after plateauing after launch has maintained the same rate monthly. Why do you not address these other references?

FNSM stars Peter Parker. Of course it's going to have a longer stay than one starring Otto Octavius. This is not rocket science or some impenetrable mystery of the marketplace.

To seriously suggest that sales of LS and the AU video game have anything to do with people specifically wanting to vote with their dollar to support an evil Doc Ock over a redeemed one and not just because of the unique appeal of the hook of LS and the overall spectacular nature of the video game is crazy. Their treatment of Ock is not even a factor.

So that strongly suggests (not definitively proves since this is just me interpreting the data) that the Superior concept on itself doesn't sell. Especially so in a market where it didn't get special favor and special pleading, and a giant spotlight entirely for itself.

The Superior concept was meant to be a storyline in ASM, not a freestanding character that would go on for years occupying his own space in the MU.

That the storyline proved popular enough to be extended in ASM as well as in Superior Spider-Man Team-Up and go on to have important appearances elsewhere and have a series of his own to tie-up his story (as well as being immortalized in animation now) makes it quite the success. This is not a character like Alpha that tanked out of the gate. SSM enjoyed a very healthy life. And, depending on what takes place in SSM #12, we may or may have seen the last of this incarnation of Otto.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What failure?

Each issue selling lower than the previous.

SSM is a satellite Spidey book. They traditionally perform at a certain level, even the ones that star Peter himself.

It's done significantly worse than every other satellite book on the market.

That the storyline proved popular enough to be extended in ASM as well as in Superior Spider-Man Team-Up

The latter was mandated by editorial. The former was part of the entire gimmick right from the start.

(as well as being immortalized in animation now)

You mean the weakest and ugliest looking Spider-Man cartoon in the modern era. Produced in fact by Quesada and Stephen Wacker, as well as Dan Slott, all of whom have vested interests in promoting that era.