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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If we compare Kindred to other mystery villains like Goblin and Hobgoblin, the difference is that Spencer hasn't offered any "red herrings". No fakes, no blind alleys, no decoys, no face hidden in shadow decoys (which is how Ditko built up the mystery of the Goblin).

    We haven't gotten a tease of who Kindred is behind the mask. Heck, most importantly, we haven't gotten a single confrontation between Peter and Kindred. Unless you count the mental battle in ASM #24.

    So I wonder if Kindred is intended to be such a big guessing game at least on Spencer's part.
    As he mentioned in #24, he has a name that Peter has to guess, but gave him the name of Kindred as for what to call him. So this guy clearly is connected to Peter in some way, shape, or form.
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    He's going to be an original character who at the end of an issue says a line that will relate to some fundamental part of Spider-Man but will be both revealing and confusing, and then the very next issue will explain the secret history.

    Or my guess above is correct and Abraham is making a high-level play against the Headmaster.
    I have thought about the idea that he's a complete original character. It would be very different compared to past mystery villains, whose characters were already guessed months in advance.
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  3. #183
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    ASM#7 also hints that Fisk tried to reach out to Kindred, but probably to resurrect Vanessa, but he refused.

    Perhaps this is just some random detail, but it could be important too.

    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    The clues don’t fit 100%... or even 70%... but the only suspect I can think of is maaaaybeeee Ezekiel. He also called Peter “Pete.” *shrug* If Ben Reilly hadn’t already been brought back in CC, then he’d be a top guess. To be honest, no suspect really fits and either we will think Spencer is a genius when the identity is revealed, or we’ll be left scratching our heads in confusion.
    Biggest problem with Ezekiel being Kindred is that he was never shown to have a connection to Norman, as the preview of ASM#30 has him saying that Norman used to torment him "whether the mask was on or not", and I'm not sure if for the time Norman was active as Green Goblin he could really have met Ezekiel, assuming we're not getting big retcons that is.

    Honestly, that connection with Norman is the biggest clue we got so far, and as far as I can see, Harry is the most likely candidate, but maybe there's some obscure character who was tormented by Norman and died.

    Edit: I had a random thought, maybe he's someone from the Gathering Five? I'm only somewhat aware those guys though, I only know one of them died at least, and Mattie was part of it... But maybe someone there knew Norman for years, died and maybe the ritual could help that person into becoming a demon?
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 09-21-2019 at 05:12 PM.

  4. #184
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    Was Otto's old body turned into the one he briefly had in CC or did it only have samples taken to create that one? I'm not wanting to dignify CC and look but from the scans I can find it doesn't specify. The mind left over in that is Peter's and so that might explain it? I don't know it's just a shot in the dark.
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  5. #185
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    I think Spencer is a good enough writer and planner that things that don't seem like red herrings are ones. For example, that whole Norman monologue would be consistent with Kindred being, like, the janitor at Oscorp instead of Harry or someone of a similar stature in Norman's life. He'd know a little bit of stuff about Norman, hear rumors about others, feel looked down on, etc. I think calling Peter "Pete" might also fall into this category - someone that died, somehow discovered Spidey's identity, and is now kind of demonic wouldn't really care about social conventions in deciding how to refer to Peter. We're also reading protecting MJ as something a friend of hers might do, where a crazy stalker might also have the same inclinations (and might condescendingly refer to Spidery as Pete to diminish him). I don't think these are all red herrings, mind you - just that they could be.

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    I think I'm currently leaning towards Ned Leeds. The "Ned" post-Clone Conspiracy was the only clone that appeared to have something screwy with his cognition - let's just suggest that has to do with the real Ned's soul being otherwise occupied. The guess my name stuff leads back to his helping The Rose. He'd be familiar with some of the villains, and his time as Hobgoblin had him doubly in someone else's shadow (Kingsley and Norman). The parts that don't hang together are the Black Cat part (maybe he secretly met Felicia as Hobgoblin?), MJ and what specific "sin" he holds against Peter, which is kind of a lot (which is why I'm being kind of tepid here).

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    The one thing I was thinking about with the anger about Pete telling Black Cat his identity was that maybe Kindred was upset Peter considered her worth knowing but not him. This might point to someone like Harry, who might feel more deserving of Peter's trust than Felicia.

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    I also wonder if the obsession with MJ isn't because Kindred knows and likes her but rather empathizes. If Kindred died because s/he was dating a hero/ine and was fridged or otherwise killed by a supervillain, then s/he would feel a connection with MJ as a, well, kindred spirit.
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  6. #186
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Was Otto's old body turned into the one he briefly had in CC or did it only have samples taken to create that one? I'm not wanting to dignify CC and look but from the scans I can find it doesn't specify. The mind left over in that is Peter's and so that might explain it? I don't know it's just a shot in the dark.
    Otto's old body was used as a sample, but the digitized Otto hijacked it and turned it into his own body again.
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    I think Spencer is a good enough writer and planner that things that don't seem like red herrings are ones. For example, that whole Norman monologue would be consistent with Kindred being, like, the janitor at Oscorp instead of Harry or someone of a similar stature in Norman's life. He'd know a little bit of stuff about Norman, hear rumors about others, feel looked down on, etc. I think calling Peter "Pete" might also fall into this category - someone that died, somehow discovered Spidey's identity, and is now kind of demonic wouldn't really care about social conventions in deciding how to refer to Peter. We're also reading protecting MJ as something a friend of hers might do, where a crazy stalker might also have the same inclinations (and might condescendingly refer to Spidery as Pete to diminish him). I don't think these are all red herrings, mind you - just that they could be.

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    I think I'm currently leaning towards Ned Leeds. The "Ned" post-Clone Conspiracy was the only clone that appeared to have something screwy with his cognition - let's just suggest that has to do with the real Ned's soul being otherwise occupied. The guess my name stuff leads back to his helping The Rose. He'd be familiar with some of the villains, and his time as Hobgoblin had him doubly in someone else's shadow (Kingsley and Norman). The parts that don't hang together are the Black Cat part (maybe he secretly met Felicia as Hobgoblin?), MJ and what specific "sin" he holds against Peter, which is kind of a lot (which is why I'm being kind of tepid here).

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    The one thing I was thinking about with the anger about Pete telling Black Cat his identity was that maybe Kindred was upset Peter considered her worth knowing but not him. This might point to someone like Harry, who might feel more deserving of Peter's trust than Felicia.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    I also wonder if the obsession with MJ isn't because Kindred knows and likes her but rather empathizes. If Kindred died because s/he was dating a hero/ine and was fridged or otherwise killed by a supervillain, then s/he would feel a connection with MJ as a, well, kindred spirit.
    All good points! It's very possible that this person could ne completely new, and that because of that, is looking at Peter as the center for their hatred/obsession.

    Ned Leeds is an intriguing guess. It did seem suspicious that he appeared out of all the other CC clones (although it was a callback to "Kraven's Last Hunt"). We also forget his cryptic message about Betty. Maybe Kindred is connected to Betty in some way?
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  8. #188
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Was Otto's old body turned into the one he briefly had in CC or did it only have samples taken to create that one? I'm not wanting to dignify CC and look but from the scans I can find it doesn't specify. The mind left over in that is Peter's and so that might explain it? I don't know it's just a shot in the dark.
    I do think the way Ramos draws Kindred is VERY similar to how he drew Otto's disfigured body during Dying Wish, though I feel like that is more unintentional than intentional. (Plus I think its too soon to have him be the "final boss" in a story again, it'd be a bit disappointing)

    Especially now with all those clues laid out like that, I am on the side of him being Harry, because he fits pretty much every single criteria, and I'm not sure who exactly else would match as much as he had. Even down to the "Guess my name" obsession, he's always hated the "Osborn" name associated with him (to the point he even changed it during Worldwide), so makes sense why he would want to bury it and would kill if the wrong person knew.

    I believe no matter how long the mystery lasts, I do think Kindred is the perfect example of how to do this kind of character right. Story wise he's been given the perfect amount of balance between relevancy and secrecy; as shown in the OP, he's made about 11 or so appearances in like 30 issues, so he never feels like he's overexposing himself and getting in the way of stories, while also not feeling like an afterthought who disappears for long periods of time. And there's also that he's just a really compelling character in general, he's got a really unique and interesting design, and he's enjoyable to read, loaded with personality and has even made me chuckle several times.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I do think the way Ramos draws Kindred is VERY similar to how he drew Otto's disfigured body during Dying Wish, though I feel like that is more unintentional than intentional. (Plus I think its too soon to have him be the "final boss" in a story again, it'd be a bit disappointing)

    Especially now with all those clues laid out like that, I am on the side of him being Harry, because he fits pretty much every single criteria, and I'm not sure who exactly else would match as much as he had. Even down to the "Guess my name" obsession, he's always hated the "Osborn" name associated with him (to the point he even changed it during Worldwide), so makes sense why he would want to bury it and would kill if the wrong person knew.

    I believe no matter how long the mystery lasts, I do think Kindred is the perfect example of how to do this kind of character right. Story wise he's been given the perfect amount of balance between relevancy and secrecy; as shown in the OP, he's made about 11 or so appearances in like 30 issues, so he never feels like he's overexposing himself and getting in the way of stories, while also not feeling like an afterthought who disappears for long periods of time. And there's also that he's just a really compelling character in general, he's got a really unique and interesting design, and he's enjoyable to read, loaded with personality and has even made me chuckle several times.
    Agreed on all counts! As of right now, Kindred is just the type of new villain that we need! Someone being built from the ground up. I'm excited!

    As for Kindred being Harry, there's one thing I meant to mention. As of the time of this writing, there's no in-universe reason as to why Harry was brought back after OMD. We know the how: Norman Osborn faked Harry's death by having Mysterio (a tie-in) cover it up. But again...why? In the real world, the Spider-Office wanted to bring back a character. In the story...we don't know why he in particular was brought back. Who's to say that the Harry Osborn we've known these past ten years was even the real one?

    I truly, truly believe that after all the clues are laid out, Harry Osborn is our guy.
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  10. #190
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Agreed on all counts! As of right now, Kindred is just the type of new villain that we need! Someone being built from the ground up. I'm excited!

    As for Kindred being Harry, there's one thing I meant to mention. As of the time of this writing, there's no in-universe reason as to why Harry was brought back after OMD. We know the how: Norman Osborn faked Harry's death by having Mysterio (a tie-in) cover it up. But again...why? In the real world, the Spider-Office wanted to bring back a character. In the story...we don't know why he in particular was brought back. Who's to say that the Harry Osborn we've known these past ten years was even the real one?

    I truly, truly believe that after all the clues are laid out, Harry Osborn is our guy.
    I don't have anything against any theory since I've been wrong before on stuff I was sure wouldn't happen and it ended up happening. So I think it's possible that it's Harry. So while I have other theories on Kindred, I don't want to come off as picking this one.

    Having said that, I have to ask where does Harry's fixation on Felicia Hardy comes in? And what's with the association of centipedes with Harry? And again if Kindred is Harry resurrected, why doesn't he do much to protect Normie, his own son and actual kindred? I am just asking that as "devil's advocate" or something, just want to know how that fits with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    The parts that don't hang together are the Black Cat part (maybe he secretly met Felicia as Hobgoblin?), MJ and what specific "sin" he holds against Peter, which is kind of a lot (which is why I'm being kind of tepid here).
    Spider-Man stories associated with the word "sin" include "The Death of Jean DeWolff, The Return of the Sin Eater" and of course "Sins' Past".

    The one thing I was thinking about with the anger about Pete telling Black Cat his identity was that maybe Kindred was upset Peter considered her worth knowing but not him. This might point to someone like Harry, who might feel more deserving of Peter's trust than Felicia.
    Flash Thompson dated Felicia Hardy and died just a short bit after learning Peter's secret. And Flash Thompson's "Death" as per MJ was the motivation for getting back together with Peter as per ASM #10. And of course in ASM Annuel #21, Flash motivated Peter to go ahead with the marriage when he had jitters and as pet OMD-OMIT, Flash would have seen that advice backfire and seeing MJ stood up by Peter. So this might also tie into the whole subtext of the malaise in the titles since the marriage ended. But at the same time, Flash's connection to Mysterio is a stretch.

    I also wonder if the obsession with MJ isn't because Kindred knows and likes her but rather empathizes. If Kindred died because s/he was dating a hero/ine and was fridged or otherwise killed by a supervillain, then s/he would feel a connection with MJ as a, well, kindred spirit.
    That points to Gwen. My picks are Gwen and Flash but I'm not willing to bet on it. I think Harry fits well to an extent.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I don't have anything against any theory since I've been wrong before on stuff I was sure wouldn't happen and it ended up happening. So I think it's possible that it's Harry. So while I have other theories on Kindred, I don't want to come off as picking this one.

    Having said that, I have to ask where does Harry's fixation on Felicia Hardy comes in? And what's with the association of centipedes with Harry? And again if Kindred is Harry resurrected, why doesn't he do much to protect Normie, his own son and actual kindred? I am just asking that as "devil's advocate" or something, just want to know how that fits with that.
    I'll answer these individual points because there may be some answers here that may reveal themselves!

    For Harry, a fixation isn't on Felicia, but on the idea that she was "told" Peter's identity when he had to find out. Like Kindred said in that scene, Peter keeps dragging people in. As far as I know, Harry hasn't had much of a connection to Felicia, but just the idea of their coming together again may have set him off.
    As for Normie, they've been shown to have a very strained relationship in the past. Based on BND, he had a stronger relationship with Stanley than Normie. However, we hadn't yet seen Normie in ASM (despite appearing in Absolute Carnage). Maybe #30 and #31 answer those questions.
    As for the centipedes....you got me there. :P Maybe Kindred/Harry just likes the animal? They're predators, but also food. Maybe it symbolizes Harry's feelings about himself: the idea that he is a predator who can strike at any moment, but has also been used as food/sustenance time and time again.
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  12. #192
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    Perhaps it's the radioactive spider from the ultimate universe which was experimented upon by Ultimate Osborn.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    Perhaps it's the radioactive spider from the ultimate universe which was experimented upon by Ultimate Osborn.
    That would be an interesting twist! Haha
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  14. #194
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    It makes me a bit nervous that we canít come up with a consensus pick. Even Ben Reilly was a bit of a consensus pick for ďthe man in redĒ/ Jackal during CC, so Iím a bit worried whether this reveal will be genius or fall flat (like Lilly Hollister being revealed as Menace, or Jacob Connover being Rose). I think Spencer has had a pretty good (but not GREAT great) run on ASM so far, so Iíll keep my hopes up. But I do wonder whether the payoff will equal the buildup.

  15. #195
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    People guessed who the Headmaster in Glories was, but it wasn't consensus and it wasn't because Beyond-God Spencer left a trail of breadcrumbs for you to logically come to the right conclusion.
    Our main character, a socially awkward outcast, gains newfound confidence and arrogance before committing a string of horrid acts. He then wears a fancy suit and proceeds to dance like a maniac to music that isn't actually there playing around him.

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