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  1. #31
    Mind Controller Arnoldoaad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfe8 View Post
    It's been ages since I read it.. I think this will deal a lot more with the fact that it's a majorly abusive relationship
    Mad Love did that too
    Joker throws Harley out of a window and she thinks it was her fault

    Maybe Im missing something here but this are not new grounds, this has always been an abusive relationship, it would be weird if Sejic didnt use this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    One of the aspects that I liked from Mad Love. It was nice seeing a character who wasn't some genius for a change, and her getting through college by sleeping with her professors felt fitting for her character. Since it set up her not being a good psychologist and her falling for the Joker because of it. Always felt making her super smart did not fit with her character and I was never a fan of the change. While not excusing her actions I always felt it worked best with her being more simple and getting swept up in all the craziness.
    I disagree
    mainly because
    1- It is well documented that Timm has a massive hard on for sexy harley. this scene next to the "wanna ride your harley" scene is just flexing that muscle a little bit
    2- Its ok for her not to be smart but this make Harleen immoral.

    like Harley and Harleen are the same person and have always been while this route that is being used here is more about Harleen trip to madness which let her to become and even more tragic character. more like Joker.
    this is also a why I think the 2 Harley on White Knight are a great concept too both use the same concept but take different routes, one comes back to sanity and the other one dives deeper into it.
    Last edited by Arnoldoaad; 09-25-2019 at 01:40 PM.

  2. #32
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    You do know that Harley is kind of a villain right? Empowered or unempowered, violence being evil and wrong and Harley doing violence works well because she is evil and wrong.
    One thing I like about what Sejic is saying is he's not trying to say Harley isn't a villain or downplay her actions.

    Even if Joker manipulated her to some degree, her choices were her own, including her criminal actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    One of the aspects that I liked from Mad Love. It was nice seeing a character who wasn't some genius for a change, and her getting through college by sleeping with her professors felt fitting for her character. Since it set up her not being a good psychologist and her falling for the Joker because of it. Always felt making her super smart did not fit with her character and I was never a fan of the change. While not excusing her actions I always felt it worked best with her being more simple and getting swept up in all the craziness.
    I do think it's also an aspect of Harley's character that she's smarter then people give her credit for, or that she acts because she doesn't want to upstage Joker.

    Like, in Mad Love Batman even points out to Joker that her plan came closer to killing him then anything Joker ever came up with.

  3. #33
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnoldoaad View Post
    2- Its ok for her not to be smart but this make Harley immoral.
    I'm not seeing why this needs to be mentioned - Harley is immoral. Her being a little more or less moral before the Joker isn't some kind of knock against her character here - she's a villain.

  4. #34
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnoldoaad View Post
    like Harley and Harleen are the same person and have always been while this route that is being used here is more about Harleen trip to madness which let her to become and even more tragic character. more like Joker.
    Joker is a tragic character? No. Only if you take Killing Joke as his real origin, and with an unreliable narrator like the Joker...
    With his origins multiple choice, all we really have is his post supervillain stuff to judge him by, and no, none of that makes him tragic.

    Although Harley couldn't see that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    One thing I like about what Sejic is saying is he's not trying to say Harley isn't a villain or downplay her actions.

    Even if Joker manipulated her to some degree, her choices were her own, including her criminal actions.
    Sounds good, already bought a copy off Amazon.

  5. #35
    Mind Controller Arnoldoaad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I'm not seeing why this needs to be mentioned - Harley is immoral. Her being a little more or less moral before the Joker isn't some kind of knock against her character here - she's a villain.
    I edited my comment but I should still clarify what I meant to say there.

    It makes Harleen as already corrupt before she meets Joker and becomes Harley.
    Instead of having the Joker corrupt her character which is I feel this series will dig deeper into.

    Harleen is not a villain, Harley is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Joker is a tragic character? No. Only if you take Killing Joke as his real origin, and with an unreliable narrator like the Joker...
    With his origins multiple choice, all we really have is his post supervillain stuff to judge him by, and no, none of that makes him tragic.

    Although Harley couldn't see that...
    Thats a good example but I was actually thinking about the new Joker movie that will come out soon
    however I do understand your point, Joker is only a tragic character depending of the angle that he is seen as.
    Just like Harley might be less of a tragic character depending of the version.
    this one do feel like a tragic version.
    Last edited by Arnoldoaad; 09-25-2019 at 03:40 PM.

  6. #36
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnoldoaad View Post
    I edited my comment but I should still clarify what I meant to say that.

    It makes Harleen as already corrupt before she meets Joker
    Instead of having the Joker corrupt her character which is I feel this series will dig deeper into.

    Harleen is not a villain, Harley is.
    Eh, not that corrupt, she's sleeping with a professor not kicking puppies. She's got to have some sort of moral fault or failing to be taken in by the Joker's tactics like that. She was morally weak, and that led her down a far worse path. Makes sense.

  7. #37
    Mind Controller Arnoldoaad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Eh, not that corrupt, she's sleeping with a professor not kicking puppies.

    She's got to have some sort of moral fault or failing to be taken in by the Joker's tactics like that. She was morally weak, and that led her down a far worse path. Makes sense.
    But thats what im saying

    on Mad Love, she is this morally weak person who is attracted to Joker almost immidiatly and goes down this path because she doesnt know better, she is an easily manipulative person.
    It is not necesarily her fault but she isnt blameless.

    here she is more, I like to say inocent, she is not attracted to Joker but is rather afraid of him, it feels more real and more tragic to me.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnoldoaad View Post
    But thats what im saying

    on Mad Love, she is this morally weak person who is attracted to Joker almost immidiatly and goes down this path because she doesnt know better, she is an easily manipulative person.
    It is not necesarily her fault but she isnt blameless.

    here she is more, I like to say inocent, she is not attracted to Joker but is rather afraid of him, it feels more real and more tragic to me.
    It's a combination of fear and hubris. She's convinced she's right, that conviction leads her to think she can save him,while still being afraid. If she saves him, she stops being afraid, and all the naysayers are proven wrong.
    If the story follows the earlier sketches we get to see more of that, perhaps in volume two

  9. #39
    Incredible Member Gurz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Any reason for the protectiveness of the Joker.
    Joker should be exclusive to Batman to beat, that makes more quality joker story. If eveyone beats joker... that takes a way from his coolness.
    Bad bad boy with a bad bad girl in a bad bad world.

    Favorite Characters:
    1-Batman, 2- Wolverine 3-Nightwing, 4-Darkness, 5- Blade

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    Joker should be exclusive to Batman to beat, that makes more quality joker story. If eveyone beats joker... that takes a way from his coolness.
    most, if not all, of the batfam has beaten him.Nightwing killed him.Superman beat him, and thats just from the top of my head. If the fact that he's beaten make him uncool well... you're a bit late then

  11. #41
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    Joker should be exclusive to Batman to beat, that makes more quality joker story. If eveyone beats joker... that takes a way from his coolness.
    When it comes to villains, I just don't think getting defeated takes away from their "coolness". Not like he doesn't deserves it, not like he hasn't beaten Harley black and blue before, not like every time Harley sees him he winds up her punching bag. Her beating him once in a personal story arc for her is more than fine.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    One of the aspects that I liked from Mad Love. It was nice seeing a character who wasn't some genius for a change, and her getting through college by sleeping with her professors felt fitting for her character. Since it set up her not being a good psychologist and her falling for the Joker because of it. Always felt making her super smart did not fit with her character and I was never a fan of the change. While not excusing her actions I always felt it worked best with her being more simple and getting swept up in all the craziness.
    I have to say I kind of agree. It would explain why this "super smart" person fell for the common "abusive alcoholic father" story that Joker cooked up. Original Harley was simply way over her head, she was trying to con a conman and got played.

    Harleen was the original Warren White; someone who thought they were going to take the easy way out (Harleen trying to take advantage of the mentally ill to get rich quick, Warren pleading insanity to get out of jail time)

    I'm interested in seeing how she is handled here.
    Last edited by Mistah K88; 09-25-2019 at 03:06 PM.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    I like it so far. If Joker usually is the scary clown, Harley has often been the happy or sad clown. But in most stories about Harley Quinn, it is stories about her. Sejic, on the other hand, centers the story to not a story about Harley, but to Harley's story, and makes it a tragedy.

    Mad Love was to a large degree told from Batman's point of view, and reflects the morality of most superhero stories: crime is a moral failing and Harleen Quinzel was an immoral person from the start.

    But Sejic takes another tack, while still revisiting the same story beats. Harleen isn't an immoral person. She is afraid, and alone, and probably a bit desperate. And more than a little monomaniac. But she is not evil. On the contrary, I imagine that the Joker will corrupt her through her virtues: her compassion and her desire to understand.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  14. #44
    Mind Controller Arnoldoaad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stryfe8 View Post
    It's a combination of fear and hubris. She's convinced she's right, that conviction leads her to think she can save him,while still being afraid. If she saves him, she stops being afraid, and all the naysayers are proven wrong.
    If the story follows the earlier sketches we get to see more of that, perhaps in volume two
    I dont think thats quite it
    Its not about that she wants to save him
    I dont believe that this Harley feels any sympathy for him, at least not yet, like on Mad Love but rather that she wants to solve him, like one would solve a puzzle.

    this specially convincing in the fight scene with Batman when the public starts cheering she starts convinsing herself that this is wrong not because of she feels sorry for the joker but because the whole scene is pure madness, including batman, joker and the city cheering for him
    "I feel a twinge of something unhinged about this city..."

    she sees Joker as a subject not as a person
    when she starts seeing him as a person thats when she will start to lose her mind

  15. #45
    Emma was right Gamall's Avatar
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    The only thing I don’t like in this is how Stepan draws Joker. He’s too handsome and don’t give me the Joker vibes. More like Alan and Anna arranged role-playing.

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