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  1. #151
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Fair enough, but then I remember when Hoechlin said in his first interview about playing Superman saying that Superman is not dark or angsty... and then said obvious things like Superman being brights, hopeful, etc. It really annoys me because he talked like he really cared about how to portray the character right (unlike the new movies), but then he is fine being the official jobber Superman on Supergirl... Makes him a hyppocrite to me.
    I think we should take any actor's vocalized enthusiasm to play any role with a huge grain of salt. Nobody ever says, "I wanted to play Batman, but they gave me Superman instead, and since I have bills to pay I semi-reluctantly took the part."

  2. #152
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    I think he was a lot more likable when he was first introduced in the beginning of season 2. He was Kara's equal at least..

    It went downhill after that. BTW, remember when the Supergirl show started and the intro used to say Superman was the greatest hero in the universe? LOL..

    Or did I dream it?
    In the opening sequence Kara says "When I arrived I was still a 13 year old girl but in that same time my cousin Kal-El had already grown up reveled himself to your world as Superman. The most powerful man in the universe."
    So technically Superman is still the most powerful man in the universe. It's just there is a woman more powerful.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Fair enough, but then I remember when Hoechlin said in his first interview about playing Superman saying that Superman is not dark or angsty... and then said obvious things like Superman being brights, hopeful, etc. It really annoys me because he talked like he really cared about how to portray the character right (unlike the new movies), but then he is fine being the official jobber Superman on Supergirl... Makes him a hyppocrite to me.
    But Hoechlin isn't responsible for the script that reduces Superman in favour of Supergirl. I cannot see what he, as a paid actor, can do to present the CW Superman differently on a Supergirl show. The jobbing of his character lies squarely with the producers and the writers.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 10-10-2019 at 12:29 PM.

  4. #154
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    I think Hoechlin did a nice job with Clark/Superman when he first showed up on SUPERGIRL. He played the character just right to balance the Christopher Reeve hopeful charm with the Henry Cavill brooding angst--making for a solid composite Superman, which I believe is what the Arrowverse wanted (a Superman for all seasons). It's only later on that he got sold down the river and had to play second fiddle to Supergirl. But you can't fault an actor for doing what he was directed to do. And he demonstrated his range when he played the black-suited "Injustice" Superman in "Elseworlds."

  5. #155
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Ok seriously. No offence to anyone in that picture (this 100% goes for the above one too). They are all super attractive and talented people, but good lord, it LEGITIMATELY looks like Superman wondered into a Comic Con, and, because he's Superman, agreed to take a group photo with a bunch of people attending. Seriously, he's like *this* close to looking like a life-size model. It's JUST Superman!!
    I wonder what material they used for the costume.
    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think it's fair to say that most people who work on Superman-related projects don't love the character...
    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think we should take any actor's vocalized enthusiasm to play any role with a huge grain of salt. Nobody ever says, "I wanted to play Batman, but they gave me Superman instead, and since I have bills to pay I semi-reluctantly took the part."
    That seems a little harsh view of things.

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That seems a little harsh view of things.
    It is, but it's largely my honest opinion on things. I don't think many actors who take on Superman "love" the character like those of us who post here, or even are that knowledgeable about all the Superman-related media out there. It makes me think of accounts of actors who played roles and get asked questions by fans like, "Do you remember in episode [whatever] when [something] happened," and the actor has no idea what the fan is talking about. We fans have a passion that we can't expect the actors to share, because many times the actor is just doing a job. On the comics side, I don't see the love for Superman from writers. I think Dan Jurgens loves Superman. I think guys Tomasi are mostly happy to have the work. I can't prove this, but it's just the impression I get. Generally, we're lucky to see a Superman writers stick around for 24 months, and then he's gone. We could interpret that in many ways, but I just feel like if someone viewed the Super books as a dream job, he'd stick around longer. And on the TV and movies side, animated and live-action, absolutely nothing has convinced me that anything recent was created by a guy who loves Superman.

    Maybe my standard for "love" in this instance is really high, but that's the context to take when I say most people who work on Superman don't "love" the character.

    As for what actor's say when they take a part, well, I think it's pretty straightforward. I never hear any actor say anything other than positive things about their enthusiasm to play a character. If I were a producer, and I heard my actor say something negative about taking on that role, I'd chew him out like the NBA just did to Daryl Morey this last week and make him "clarify" that he really meant to say he was really excited about it. The fake quote I used was a bit over-the-top, but I feel that certain creators are like that when given the task of creating Superman stories.

  7. #157
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    I feel like the creators of the SUPERGIRL show looked at the comics for some direction, but there are so many different takes on Supergirl that there was no definitive direction they could follow. So they simply created their own version of the character, with bits and pieces from here and there, but manily using the formulas that had already been developed on SMALLVILLE, ARROW and THE FLASH. And they came up with a Supergirl who could exist on her own, without Superman (while at the same time grafting a lot of Clark's story onto Kara). So trying to work Superman back into that story isn't easy, because they never conceived of Superman playing a big part in the series (they didn't know if WB would ever let them). I imagine that if the BATWOMAN series ever got to have an actor play Bruce Wayne, they would have the same problem, because the premise of the show is built on Batwoman being the Batman.

    I kind of wish the creative team on SUPERGIRL could keep all the actors they have, but start all over with a completely new premise and disregard everything from before. Because those actors are pretty good--and I think Melissa Benoist is the best lead actor in any of the Arrowverse--better than Gustin, Amell and Rose. She can take the most garbage scene and through sheer brute force milk all the emotion that's there. She's frankly too good to be on the CW. But the series itself is poorly constructed and they're making do with what they have, instead of rebuilding from the ground up.

  8. #158
    Fantastic Member Last Son's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Fair enough, but then I remember when Hoechlin said in his first interview about playing Superman saying that Superman is not dark or angsty... and then said obvious things like Superman being brights, hopeful, etc. It really annoys me because he talked like he really cared about how to portray the character right (unlike the new movies), but then he is fine being the official jobber Superman on Supergirl... Makes him a hyppocrite to me.
    There's an interview where Hoechlin said he hadn't seen any past Superman stuff and that he intentionally avoided it when he was cast as Superman so his take would be original. It sounds to me like he doesn't have any particular feelings about Superman one way or the other.

  9. #159
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    But Hoechlin isn't responsible for the script that reduces Superman in favour of Supergirl. I cannot see what he, as a paid actor, can do to present the CW Superman differently on a Supergirl show. The jobbing of his character lies squarely with the producers and the writers.
    Yeah. For what it's worth, even if you don't get to portray a character you love in a project you're proud of, you still get to be Superman. Win, lose or draw, that's pretty cool. The same for pretty much any character. I think he is genuine in saying he is excited to be able to play such a prolific character. It definitely put him on a lot of people's radar, which is a great boon for his career as well.

    I really don't care for the Snyder films. I'm not the biggest fan of For Tomorrow either, but Cavil was the Superman in those films and that's his favorite Clark story. I don't doubt he loves that character any less because I may disagree with the portrayal in the movie or what he considers a great Superman tale. He's a fan. He cares. I imagine Hoechlin does as well, casual fan now that he's cast or otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Generally, we're lucky to see a Superman writers stick around for 24 months, and then he's gone. We could interpret that in many ways, but I just feel like if someone viewed the Super books as a dream job, he'd stick around longer.
    I can't agree with you here because it's ignoring a lot of the behind-the-scenes A lot of creators get booted from a book because the sales aren't the strongest, their take doesn't align with the editorial plan, or some inter-office politics. A lot of writers have been removed from books featuring characters they love. I know Gail Simone loves Barbara and she got ousted from Batgirl. Kyle Higgins loves Nightwing and he didn't get to stay as long as he'd planned. Didn't Tomasi admit somewhere that he and Gleason had their own 100ish issue run planned that ended with a daughter? Everything he and Gleason built was inconsequential when editorial decided they wanted to go a different way.

    Writing Superman would very much be that dream job for me, but I'm a huge fan of the marriage. If I was tasked with dissolving it due to infidelity on Lois's part, you can bet that I'd raise such a ruckus on my way out I'd be banned from that office for six generations of my family. Maybe I'd be tired of them hamstringing my entire run due to editorial meddling (read about Dwayne McDuffie's Justice League of America run) and leave because the stress is spilling into my home life. Maybe I'd be out in three issues because I don't bring in anything more than the usual numbers for Superman. Maybe it's less! Who knows?
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-10-2019 at 10:10 PM.

  10. #160
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I think we should take any actor's vocalized enthusiasm to play any role with a huge grain of salt. Nobody ever says, "I wanted to play Batman, but they gave me Superman instead, and since I have bills to pay I semi-reluctantly took the part."
    It depends. Some actors seems really genuine and knowledgeable on Superman. Like Cameron Cuffe from the show Krypton. He said repeatedly what a huge Superman fan he has been his whole life. I believe him so far.

    Now, Hoechlin made those comments on who Superman shouldn't be. I never said he loved the character, but he said those things like he had some basic knowledge on how Superman should act. I always assumed he was TOLD to say those things by the showrunners/producer of Supergirl to try to reach out to those fans who didn't like Snyder's take on Superman. It was pretty obvious it didn't come from his own mind and heart. Still he said it. And he keeps coming back for more.. It seems he doesn't mind being Jobber Superman on the CW. He doesn't have to do it, but he does it any way. That tells me he doesn't care about Superman. He doesn't have my sympathy.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 10-11-2019 at 07:49 AM.

  11. #161
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    It depends. Some actors seems really genuine and knowledgeable on Superman. Like Cameron Cuffe from the show Krypton. He said repeatedly what a huge Superman fan he has been his whole life. I believe him so far.

    Now, Hoechlin made those comments on who Superman shouldn't be. I never said he loved the character, but he said those things like he had some basic knowledge on how Superman should act. I always assumed he was TOLD to say those things by the showrunners/producer of Supergirl to try to reach out to those fans who didn't like Snyder's take on Superman. It was pretty obvious it didn't come from his own mind and heart. Still he said it. And he keeps coming for more. It seems he doesn't mind being Jobber Superman on the CW. He doesn't have to do it, but he does it any way. That tells me he doesn't care about Superman. He doesn't have my sympathy.
    It's his job. He wasn't a particularly large actor, but he landed what is one of the largest parts in classic American pop culture. Even if Superman's not the most popular hero anymore, he's still going to turn a lot of heads. He has bills to pay and a career to think of. Frankly, he'd be stupid to drop what is a paying gig with a ton of eyes on him just because it doesn't seem to respect a source material he wasn't particularly attached to one way or another. I'm not saying I enjoy watching Superman job for people, but I'm not going to begrudge an actor for jumping on an opportunity of a lifetime. He gets to be the first TV Superman in, what, twenty years? The first one in an interconnected universe. I'm sure he'd jump at a Superman show where Clark gets to be the star and prove he's the best hero that's ever been.

    I don't /have/ to do my job, but it's a better prospect than going back into the job pool and looking around. I imagine there's not a ton of places to go in television better than "recurring part as Superman in a successful television series that is run by a network known to do spin-offs of popular characters." Tyler is about the last person I'd throw blame at for his Superman's agency in the series. Same as Cavil for the DCEU. It wasn't his fault and I don't blame him for not walking away from a role that will likely be what he's remembered for.

  12. #162
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    I still don't have to like it or him.

    It's like Zack Snyder. Many Superman fans hate and resent him, and I don't blame them. He did his best, but his best wasn't good enough. It is what it is.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    It is, but it's largely my honest opinion on things. I don't think many actors who take on Superman "love" the character like those of us who post here, or even are that knowledgeable about all the Superman-related media out there. It makes me think of accounts of actors who played roles and get asked questions by fans like, "Do you remember in episode [whatever] when [something] happened," and the actor has no idea what the fan is talking about. We fans have a passion that we can't expect the actors to share, because many times the actor is just doing a job. On the comics side, I don't see the love for Superman from writers. I think Dan Jurgens loves Superman. I think guys Tomasi are mostly happy to have the work. I can't prove this, but it's just the impression I get. Generally, we're lucky to see a Superman writers stick around for 24 months, and then he's gone. We could interpret that in many ways, but I just feel like if someone viewed the Super books as a dream job, he'd stick around longer. And on the TV and movies side, animated and live-action, absolutely nothing has convinced me that anything recent was created by a guy who loves Superman.

    Maybe my standard for "love" in this instance is really high, but that's the context to take when I say most people who work on Superman don't "love" the character.

    As for what actor's say when they take a part, well, I think it's pretty straightforward. I never hear any actor say anything other than positive things about their enthusiasm to play a character. If I were a producer, and I heard my actor say something negative about taking on that role, I'd chew him out like the NBA just did to Daryl Morey this last week and make him "clarify" that he really meant to say he was really excited about it. The fake quote I used was a bit over-the-top, but I feel that certain creators are like that when given the task of creating Superman stories.
    Off the top of my head, writers who don’t love Superman:

    Chuck Austen, Steven T. Seagle, John Romita, Azzarello.

    I think if you count Tomasi on that list, there’s either a miscommunication or maybe he just loves a different version than you.

    Or your bar is crazy high.

  14. #164
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    In the opening sequence Kara says "When I arrived I was still a 13 year old girl but in that same time my cousin Kal-El had already grown up reveled himself to your world as Superman. The most powerful man in the universe."
    So technically Superman is still the most powerful man in the universe. It's just there is a woman more powerful.
    yay girl powa!


  15. #165
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I think we have to differentiate between “like” as in creators who are cool with Supes and dig him a little, “love” as in creators who consider Supes one of their favs and spend a ton of time thinking about how he works and what would make him better, “hate” as in creators who absolutely despise him and go out of their way to crap on him, and “uncaring”, creators who don’t really think about him at all and if you asked would probably say he’s boring but don’t hold any animosity towards him.

    Love: Morrison, Byrne, Waid, Simone, Johns, JMS, Jurgens, Wolfman, Ordway, Millar, Busiek, and Bendis

    These guys have all talked a lot about how much they love the character. They haven’t all put out work that everyone loves with the character, (or even work that can be called good imo) I don’t really like Byrne’s take, a ton of people hate Bendis’ and JMS’ stuff, but all of them have talked about the character in a way that shows they’ve spent a lot of time thinking about the character and how he works and what about him is cool and what in their opinion needs work.

    Like: Tomasi, Ennis, Miller, Rucka, Kelly, Loeb, Cooke, Scott Snyder, Goyer

    These guys like Supes but he’s nowhere near their favorite. They buy into what he represents but sometimes struggle to dig deep into the character. I loved Tomasi’s Rebirth run but the main character was Jon not Clark. Jon was the one who received the majority of the development, and any time Tomasi tried to focus on Clark the writing suffered (Multiplicity, Imperius Lex, pretty much all of Vol. 5). Ennis is someone who has written a great Superman in his Hitman cameo but he hates superheroes too much in general for me to say he loves Superman, and if you asked him I’m not sure what his feelings towards Supes are now.

    Uncaring: Azzarello, Austen, Timm, Dini, Weisman, Terrio

    These guys don’t hate Supes but they don’t care about him either. They put in the bare minimum of effort when it comes to him the majority of the time. Sometimes they put out some good work, like Dini writing Peace on Earth, but most of the time the work is mediocre or boring. Go read Azzarelo’s foreword to For Tomorrow and you’ll see what I’m talking about. Azz doesn’t talk about the goals of the project, or his approach to Superman, or what he thought about the project now. Instead he just tells an anecdote about Jim Lee asking him to do the project and then him and his buddies try to win a bet with Didio. He could not be any more blunt if he wrote “don’t care lmao I just did this for the money”.

    Hate: Netherrealms Studios

    These guys are ones I can safely say hate the character. Their games oozes with contempt for him and they go out of their way to make him stupid as hell. Should’ve just made a Batman fighting game since they so clearly shill Batgod. God I hate how they’ve destroyed the character.

    This isn’t a comprehensive list and I didn’t list any Pre Crisis creators but I feel like it’s a pretty accurate example of who really cares about Supes and who doesn’t. Tomasi isn’t uncaring but he’s nowhere near as strong in his love as others but he still did some good work and some of the creators who DO love Superman didn’t write him well at all.
    Last edited by Vordan; 10-11-2019 at 08:28 AM.

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