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  1. #121
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    (A) No. Steve Trevor. And there's been others over the years. Diana just doesn't have a stable supporting cast.
    Ferdinand is also pretty popular, and as far as I've seen he's heterosexual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Are the only males, welcome (by fans) into the Wonder Woman family ..to be LGBTQA males? When it comes to Wonder-fans, is all masculinity taken for toxic masculinity?
    Seriously, Mel Dyer. What a silly, silly question. Especially when the quote you're referring to (from yourself) states that LGBT+ characters haven't been very successful in the past in the Wonder Woman universe.

  2. #122
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    Ferdinand is also pretty popular, and as far as I've seen he's heterosexual...Mel Dyer. What a silly, silly question. Especially when the quote you're referring to (from yourself) states that LGBT+ characters haven't been very successful in the past in the Wonder Woman universe.
    The WW comic typically has such poor illustrations of masculinity. I think I've given up on ever seeing Diana played off a male lead, straight or LGBTQA, ..who doesn't make me sick.

    That said, when it comes to building a Wonder Woman family, I think we have to follow the Bat and Super models. Superhero families are typically made up of heroic companions, who express something that the leading character cannot. The younger or kid sister figure, who needs the lead hero's guidance - Cassie or Batgirl? The mother and counsel to the hero, like a Ben Kenobi or Merlin - the Queen? A wild, bad-behaving sister figure - Artemis, Nubia or Huntress? A purple Rottweiler, super-canine companion, in a green cape, like Hippolyta's in the 1950s? The sibling or trusted friend, who expresses the lead's superheroics, ..but, in a masculine or feminine way, the lead's gender does not allow - the Olympian ..or Catwoman.

    We must ask ourselves what or who do Wonder Woman's stories need? What role would the characters in a Wonder Family play, which compliment Diana?

    One reason I would like to see Mala join her in Man's World is because I think it woudl be interesting to see Diana be the darker, more assertive figure in a friendship, with another woman. Mala has typically been the more optimistic of the two. It would be interesting to see Mala be Diana's light, when she needs it, ..and in a way that Etta, edgy Artemis or her mother, Queen of the Amazons, ..cannot.

    Anyway, ..Etta, Donna, Artemis, the Queen, Steve Trevor, heroic Perez Hercules, Wonder Dog...good start!
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 08-16-2020 at 01:13 PM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The WW comic typically has such poor illustrations of masculinity. I think I've given up on ever seeing Diana played off a male lead, straight or LGBTQA, ..who doesn't make me sick.

    That said, when it comes to building a Wonder Woman family, I think we have to follow the Bat and Super models. Superhero families are typically made up of heroic companions, who express something that the leading character cannot. The younger or kid sister figure, who needs the lead hero's guidance - Cassie or Batgirl? The mother and counsel to the hero, like a Ben Kenobi or Merlin - the Queen? A wild, bad-behaving sister figure - Artemis, Nubia or Huntress? A purple Rottweiler, super-canine companion, in a green cape, like Hippolyta's in the 1950s? The sibling or trusted friend, who expresses the lead's superheroics, ..but, in a masculine or feminine way, the lead's gender does not allow - the Olympian ..or Catwoman.

    We must ask ourselves what or who do Wonder Woman's stories need? What role would the characters in a Wonder Family play, which compliment Diana?

    One reason I would like to see Mala join her in Man's World is because I think it woudl be interesting to see Diana be the darker, more assertive figure in a friendship, with another woman. Mala has typically been the more optimistic of the two. It would be interesting to see Mala be Diana's light, when she needs it, ..and in a way that Etta, edgy Artemis or her mother, Queen of the Amazons, ..cannot.

    Anyway, ..Etta, Donna, Artemis, the Queen, Steve Trevor, heroic Perez Hercules, Wonder Dog...good start!
    What exactly is your idea of good portrayals of masculinity? Because often it seems any male character who doesn't act like some panty-dropping casanova whom men want to be and women want to be with is considered a bad male character.

    We've seen male character presented as heroic, sympathetic figures with good relationships with Diana, romantic or otherwise. I would think that would be enough. Hell, we've gotten more focus on Diana's relationship with Steve in the past four or so years than that of her mother, her sister, her sidekick or almost any of the other female characters she's had over the decades

  4. #124
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What exactly is your idea of good portrayals of masculinity? Because often it seems any male character who doesn't act like some panty-dropping casanova whom men want to be and women want to be with is considered a bad male character.

    We've seen male character presented as heroic, sympathetic figures with good relationships with Diana, romantic or otherwise. I would think that would be enough. Hell, we've gotten more focus on Diana's relationship with Steve in the past four or so years than that of her mother, her sister, her sidekick or almost any of the other female characters she's had over the decades
    Lois Lane climbs in and out of giant, alien cheese-graters, with no care for what harm Superman will endure to save her, ..and all for a news story. She is a sexy, ambitious, fiercely independent, entirely absurd character, ..but, what a woman!

    Steve Trevor, by comparison, isn't a portrait of masculinity, in any way. He's been completely defined by his relationship to Wonder Woman, since the Golden Age. He follows her around, like a little dog...like an accessory. He doesn't even have enough oumf to occasionally be a smartass or make an off-color joke. A man would never be content, with such a droll existence! He may as well be a bloody handbag.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 08-18-2020 at 01:24 AM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Lois climbs in and out of giant, alien cheese-graters, with no care for what harm Superman will endure to save her. She is a fiercely independent, entirely absurd character, ..but, what a woman!

    Steve Trevor, by comparison, isn't a portrait of masculinity, in any way. He's been completely defined by his relationship to Wonder Woman, since the Golden Age. He may as well be a bloody handbag.
    I'm sorry but this is a very narrow-minded and outdated view of masculinity. And Steve does just as many absurd things as Lois. There is nothing inherently masculine about Lois does if that is what you are implying.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-18-2020 at 01:24 AM.

  6. #126
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm sorry but this is a very narrow-minded and outdated view of masculinity. And Steve does just as many absurd things as Lois. There is nothing inherently masculine about Lois does if that is what you are implying.
    I think you have a very narrow-minded view of my view.

    I don't think most men feel represented, by Steve Trevor, because, since the 50s, he's been the comic equivalent of a Ken doll. Steve Trevor is not written with sufficient independence or forcefulness, like a Wolverine, Batman or Orion, for most little boys to want to be him, ..or for grown men to have wanted to be him, when they were little boys - even with his magic girlfriend, Wonder Woman.

    I just don't know any men and, when I was a boy, never met any other boys, who wanted to be Steve Trevor for any time, longer, than it would take ..to be deflowered by Wonder Woman. Guys generally don't feel represented by Steve ..or want to be him, for more than a few hours, in a room with his girlfriend. Sorry, but, it's true.

    As I've said before, I think the modern model for Steve Trevor should be Willie Garvin, aide-de-camp and sublimely flirty companion of another comic action heroine, ..Modesty Blaise. Steve, while certainly having a strong attraction to Diana, should be a guy, whose skills, government access and character warrant her enlisting his aid, on her missions. As with Modesty and Willie, I think Wonder Woman should keep him around - enlist his aid, etc - because of what he can do, ..and NOT just because she's sweet on him. I also think, while sharing a special friendship with her, Steve should be one of a small circle of skilled friends and loyalists, male and female, who regularly join Diana on her adventures - ala, Doc Savage's Fabulous Five.

    Historically, it's done no good to bring Willie up, because I can't get enough of our community to look him up or read his Wiki. Same with the Fab Five...can't get anybody to read the Wiki!

    Anyway, our fellow postors sa-aay they welcome independent, assertive men, who challenge Diana, or generally aren't too impressed, with her, being in the Wonder Woman family ..I believe them.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 08-18-2020 at 12:34 PM.

  7. #127
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think you have a very narrow-minded view of my view.

    I don't think most men feel represented, by Steve Trevor, because, since the 50s, he's been the comic equivalent of a Ken doll. Steve Trevor is not written with sufficient independence or forcefulness, like a Wolverine, Batman or Orion, for most little boys to want to be him, ..or for grown men to have wanted to be him, when they were little boys - even with his magic girlfriend, Wonder Woman.

    I just don't know any men and, when I was a boy, never met any other boys, who wanted to be Steve Trevor for any time, longer, than it would take ..to be deflowered by Wonder Woman. Guys generally don't feel represented by Steve ..or want to be him, for more than a few hours, in a room with his girlfriend. Sorry, but, it's true.

    As I've said before, I think the modern model for Steve Trevor should be Willie Garvin, aide-de-camp and sublimely flirty companion of another comic action heroine, ..Modesty Blaise. Steve, while certainly having a strong attraction to Diana, should be a guy, whose skills, government access and character warrant her enlisting his aid, on her missions. As with Modesty and Willie, I think Wonder Woman should keep him around - enlist his aid, etc - because of what he can do, ..and NOT just because she's sweet on him. I also think, while sharing a special friendship with her, Steve should be one of a small circle of skilled friends and loyalists, male and female, who regularly join Diana on her adventures - ala, Doc Savage's Fabulous Five.

    Historically, it's done no good to bring Willie up, because I can't get enough of our community to look him up or read his Wiki. Same with the Fab Five...can't get anybody to read the Wiki!

    Anyway, our fellow postors sa-aay they welcome independent, assertive men, who challenge Diana, or generally aren't too impressed, with her, being in the Wonder Woman family ..I believe them.
    Steve should be joined by Ferdinand, I Ching, Perez Hercules, her cousin Prince Hippolytos [Paul Lighthouse?], the heroes of Thalarion ..and Mister Genie. Terminally perfect Steve should not be the definitive male in the Wonderverse.

    And what about the dog? Anybody here against Diana having a dog or Zephyr the Wonder Bird? I think she should've had one, years ago.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 08-19-2020 at 05:58 PM.

  8. #128
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think you have a very narrow-minded view of my view.

    I don't think most men feel represented, by Steve Trevor, because, since the 50s, he's been the comic equivalent of a Ken doll. Steve Trevor is not written with sufficient independence or forcefulness, like a Wolverine, Batman or Orion, for most little boys to want to be him, ..or for grown men to have wanted to be him, when they were little boys - even with his magic girlfriend, Wonder Woman.

    I just don't know any men and, when I was a boy, never met any other boys, who wanted to be Steve Trevor for any time, longer, than it would take ..to be deflowered by Wonder Woman. Guys generally don't feel represented by Steve ..or want to be him, for more than a few hours, in a room with his girlfriend. Sorry, but, it's true.

    As I've said before, I think the modern model for Steve Trevor should be Willie Garvin, aide-de-camp and sublimely flirty companion of another comic action heroine, ..Modesty Blaise. Steve, while certainly having a strong attraction to Diana, should be a guy, whose skills, government access and character warrant her enlisting his aid, on her missions. As with Modesty and Willie, I think Wonder Woman should keep him around - enlist his aid, etc - because of what he can do, ..and NOT just because she's sweet on him. I also think, while sharing a special friendship with her, Steve should be one of a small circle of skilled friends and loyalists, male and female, who regularly join Diana on her adventures - ala, Doc Savage's Fabulous Five.

    Historically, it's done no good to bring Willie up, because I can't get enough of our community to look him up or read his Wiki. Same with the Fab Five...can't get anybody to read the Wiki!

    Anyway, our fellow postors sa-aay they welcome independent, assertive men, who challenge Diana, or generally aren't too impressed, with her, being in the Wonder Woman family ..I believe them.
    Wolverine and Batman aren't good examples to compare to Steve since they're main leads of their own franchises whereas Steve was designed and largely exists as a supporting character. And tbh, those three are near the bottom of the list of characters who should Steve should be modeled after.

  9. #129
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Wolverine and Batman aren't good examples to compare to Steve since they're main leads of their own franchises whereas Steve was designed and largely exists as a supporting character. And tbh, those three are near the bottom of the list of characters who should Steve should be modeled after.
    I think we can agree that Steve should be in the Wonder Family, in some fashion. Now, would I have him descended from an ancient line of demons or something equally sinister that he's running away from, ..with 'Steve Trevor' not even being his real name? Of course, I would. I still think he should be an important member of the Wonder family.

  10. #130
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    I guess my Wonderfam is a bit long so, I'll try to categorize it. Diana is obviously in the Fam so I'm excluding her for this list.

    Blood Family

    Hippolyta - Diana's mother, 10th amazon queen

    Atalanta - Diana's aunt, founder of the Bana

    Antiope - Diana's aunt, 2nd general of the amazons

    Melanippe - Diana's aunt, amazon star explorer

    Donna Troy (Troia) - Diana's blood sister, sculpted at the same time as Diana by Hippolyta

    Romantic Interest

    Steve Trevor - ARGUS commando, special unit leader

    Protégés

    Cassie Sandsmark - Wonder Girl

    Miles Prince - Wonder boy, Steve and Diana's son

    Fellow Wonder Women

    Nubia - the new Shimtar, wielder of the bow of Ra, champion of the Bana in Egypt

    Maria Mendoza - Wielder of Manco Capac's staff, champion of the South American amazon tribe

    Peng Delian - China's green serpent guardian, dragon shape sifter, champion of a small amazon tribe in China

    Animal Allies

    Jumpa - alien kanga from a destroyed planet, (amazons star explorers brought the species to Paradise island)

    Fang - a dire wolf with enhanced abilities and intellect, used primarily by Wonder boy

    Swiftmaw - one of the Megalodons that guard Themiscyra

    Aetos - the golden eagle of Zeus, follows Wonder Woman everywhere, her messenger to the gods
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  11. #131
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    WONDER WOMAN

    Wonder Woman
    Donna Troy (Actually a younger version of Wonder Woman)
    Wonder Tot (Actually a younger version of Donna Troy)
    Wondergirl (Not blood relative of Wonder Woman, just some protege)

    WIVES

    Cheetah (Red-hair)
    Medusa (Cute snake girl)

    AMOZINS

    Hipolyta (Not a blood mother of Wonder Woman)
    Amazons that are actually Wonder Woman's equal and not red shirts. Instead of being the best at everything, how about WW is just the all around best?
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

    "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few necks." - Wonder Woman, probably

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    WONDER WOMAN
    Instead of being the best at everything, how about WW is just the all around best?
    What's the difference?

  13. #133
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Diana
    Donna Troy (young girl rescued from a fire early in Diana's career, raised on Themyscira when it's revealed she has Titan heritage.)
    Cassie (Kapatelis and Sandsmark families made into one, gets her powers from magical items/ancient artifacts)
    Artemis

    Main supporting cast:
    Steve Trevor (movie version)
    Etta Candy (Legend of Wonder Woman
    General Darnell (re-imagined new head of Argus)
    Ferdinand
    Giganta (redeemed villain)
    Vanessa and Julia

    The Amazons
    Hippolyta
    Philippus
    Nubia (Philippus' daughter)
    Io
    Mala
    etc

  14. #134
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What's the difference?
    Here are some examples;
    >>> Esma: Most powerful Amazon, with big beefy arms. Stronger than Wonder Woman.
    >>> Melisa: Most skilled archer of the Amazons. Better at shooting things than Wonder Woman.
    >>> Fatma: Fastest of the Amazons......

    Obviously Wonder Woman gains her powers through Amazons training, none of that divine parentage or divine gifts stuff so all amazons are on an equal footing. Also, all Amazons will be Turkish/ Middle Eastern now too, no more boring faux ancient Greek art.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

    "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few necks." - Wonder Woman, probably

  15. #135
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    I'd also bring back Lyta Milton and make her the main universe version of Fury.

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