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  1. #106
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    What I meant by creepier is that evil children are always scary. Anyone that's seen "The God Son", "The Omen", "Orphan", "The Bad Seed", "Children of the Corn", "Village of the Damned" or Claudia in "Interview with the Vampire" knows what I'm talking about.

    They lost the appeal of the core concept when they aged Devastation up, when she appears next in Orlando's Four Horsewomen arc she'll be a child again or at most a tween.
    Well, the fun part is that her superhuman beauty power gives her limited shape changing. So she can walk around looking like a grown woman, then change back to a pre-teen at will.

  2. #107
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well, the fun part is that her superhuman beauty power gives her limited shape changing. So she can walk around looking like a grown woman, then change back to a pre-teen at will.
    Yeah she had a great power set, the warping of Diana's gifts was a really cool idea.

    After reading her long list of her abilities it's difficult to see why Warmaster would need anyone besides Deva to beat Wonder Woman. Adding in Genocide and Armageddon seems like overkill, Diana is going to need a lot of help.

    Warmaster Wonder-Woman-756-B.jpg

    Hopefully it will lead to all hands on deck, including Artemis, Nubia, Donna and Cassie.

  3. #108
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    What I meant by creepier is that evil children are always scary. Anyone that's seen "The God Son", "The Omen", "Orphan", "The Bad Seed", "Children of the Corn", "Village of the Damned" or Claudia in "Interview with the Vampire" knows what I'm talking about.

    They lost the appeal of the core concept when they aged Devastation up, when she appears next in Orlando's Four Horsewomen arc she'll be a child again or at most a tween.
    I agree. I think the writers really messed up devastation, making her a grown woman. The c a c h e of this character's appearance was the perversion of Innocence, as with Damien in The Omen. There was an apocalyptic horror about her. Now, she is just one more sword swinging Brute.

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I agree. I think the writers really messed up devastation, making her a grown woman. The c a c h e of this character's appearance was the perversion of Innocence, as with Damien in The Omen. There was an apocalyptic horror about her. Now, she is just one more sword swinging Brute.
    Yes... a brute.... who's 5 feet tall.

  5. #110
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I haven’t read the entire thread, but do we have any guesses about the identity of Armageddon? Someone new or someone from Wonder history?

    I’m wondering if part of Paula’s “Valkyrie” powers is to revive or reanimate the dead. Last time we saw Genocide, she was sinking into the ocean. It’s kinda wild to think of Diana fighting her own future corpse again - hello, time paradoxes!

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Separately, I’d kind of like to see Warkiller get his own series... I have some ideas for what I’d do with him and have the series progress, but I’m reticent, because we kinda don’t need another white, lesbian or gay cisgendered (e.g. Batwoman & Midnighter) headlining a title.

    Although, I still think a gay male lead is still something revolutionary for comics companies to publish, but that still doesn’t mean I think it needs to be published over a transgender or queer superhero.

    Regardless, I think the Wonder Woman mythos is a perfect place to develop and explore LGBTQ characters by design.
    Last edited by WonderScott; 02-28-2020 at 08:40 PM.

  7. #112
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    The problem with WW's LGBTQ characters is that they're just so bland and uninteresting. As much time as was spent with Warkiller for me the one defining aspect of his personality was his weakness. He was constantly getting pushed around by Zeus, Diana and Alkyone, that doesn't inspire endearment nor power fantasies that a reader can live vicariously through. That's not just true of Warkiller, most of Diana's support consists of one note personality types that are very much the same. For instance all the Amazons sort of blend together into watered down versions of Diana and Hippolyta. The resolute warrior woman is a great archetype but how many does one book need? Please don't take that as a criticism of the Amazons because I love them. I just wish they had more color to their personalities and not just Banas bad and Themyscirans good.

    I'm all in Hickman's X-Men now and it dawned for the first time since I dropped them way back when how distinctive they are. Where's Wonder Woman's version of Emma Frost, Rogue, Storm, Kate Pryde, etc. you can take lines of dialogue and tell who said what without looking at the art. That's how Diana's supporting cast should be.

    Back to my original point, LGBTQ characters aren't all the same. Their voices, agendas and personalities should be different and their representation in WW is often too safe and sanitized. Instead of preaching to the choir give a sermon that resonates outside the four walls of the church. We're Wonder Woman fans we can handle it. You can make a big, butch, Lesbian like Top Hat from THEM! a villain and we'll know you're not being stereotypical and only painting her in a negative light, because we have other Lesbian characters to counteract that impression. You don't have to tap dance around Barbara Ann and Etta's relationship using innuendo and subtext to show only the romantic heartbreak side, you can put in their conflicts and sexual energy as well to avoid the Hallmark Channel depiction of a same sex relationship.

    Instead of making Warkiller an average affable token, why not an acid tongued butch queen with super powers to slay the kids? Why not a hot muscle bear like Midnighter? You know, something challenging and interesting? I'm aware those are both tropes but they'd be good for a guy who's only exciting characteristic is his mode of transportation.

  8. #113
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    The problem with WW's LGBTQ characters is that they're just so bland and uninteresting. As much time as was spent with Warkiller for me the one defining aspect of his personality was his weakness. He was constantly getting pushed around by Zeus, Diana and Alkyone, that doesn't inspire endearment nor power fantasies that a reader can live vicariously through. That's not just true of Warkiller, most of Diana's support consists of one note personality types that are very much the same. For instance all the Amazons sort of blend together into watered down versions of Diana and Hippolyta. The resolute warrior woman is a great archetype but how many does one book need? Please don't take that as a criticism of the Amazons because I love them. I just wish they had more color to their personalities and not just Banas bad and Themyscirans good.

    I'm all in Hickman's X-Men now and it dawned for the first time since I dropped them way back when how distinctive they are. Where's Wonder Woman's version of Emma Frost, Rogue, Storm, Kate Pryde, etc. you can take lines of dialogue and tell who said what without looking at the art. That's how Diana's supporting cast should be.

    Back to my original point, LGBTQ characters aren't all the same. Their voices, agendas and personalities should be different and their representation in WW is often too safe and sanitized. Instead of preaching to the choir give a sermon that resonates outside the four walls of the church. We're Wonder Woman fans we can handle it. You can make a big, butch, Lesbian like Top Hat from THEM! a villain and we'll know you're not being stereotypical and only painting her in a negative light, because we have other Lesbian characters to counteract that impression. You don't have to tap dance around Barbara Ann and Etta's relationship using innuendo and subtext to show only the romantic heartbreak side, you can put in their conflicts and sexual energy as well to avoid the Hallmark Channel depiction of a same sex relationship.

    Instead of making Warkiller an average affable token, why not an acid tongued butch queen with super powers to slay the kids? Why not a hot muscle bear like Midnighter? You know, something challenging and interesting? I'm aware those are both tropes but they'd be good for a guy who's only exciting characteristic is his mode of transportation.
    I guess I should have put this on the controversial opinions thread.

  9. #114
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I guess I should have put this on the controversial opinions thread.
    Doesn't sound so controversial to me.

    I question the promise of Warkiller. Like Jason, he was developed, poorly. We didn't need a graphic novel arc to introduce this character, when a good team up or rescue story would have sufficed. Either way, there isn't exactly a groundswell of interest in bringing him, back, even with WWs large gay following.

    In general, the LGBT characters don't seem to be in much demand either, that I can see. Was there a forum movement to bring Etta back to the comic ..and, more importantly, to keep her in it? Arguably, she is a more important character to the comic, than Steve Trevor, but, there was no big rallying cry to bring her back, in a more permanent role. I'm not sure making Etta or the others more demonstratively gay would change that...

    But, I also don't see how it would be controversial.

    There is a Sensation Comics hero, called the Gay Ghost. I guess you can add him to your list.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 02-27-2020 at 02:42 PM.

  10. #115
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Doesn't sound so controversial to me.

    I question the promise of Warkiller. Like Jason, he was developed, poorly. We didn't need a graphic novel arc to introduce this character, when a good team up or rescue story would have sufficed. Either way, there isn't exactly a groundswell of interest in bringing him, back, even with WWs large gay following.

    In general, the LGBT characters don't seem to be in much demand either, that I can see...Sensation Comics hero, called the Gay Ghost. I guess you can add him to your list.
    Are the only males, welcome (by fans) into the Wonder Woman family ..to be LGBTQA males? When it comes to Wonder-fans, is all masculinity taken for toxic masculinity?

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Are the only males, welcome (by fans) into the Wonder Woman family ..to be LGBTQA males? When it comes to Wonder-fans, is all masculinity taken for toxic masculinity?
    No that's absurd. There is a difference between people not liking the male characters we've gotten and not liking male characters period.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-08-2020 at 04:47 AM.

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Are the only males, welcome (by fans) into the Wonder Woman family ..to be LGBTQA males? When it comes to Wonder-fans, is all masculinity taken for toxic masculinity?
    Obviously not. That would mean abandoning the idea of shipping her with male superheroes. the original Amazon concept doesn't involve avoiding "contact" with men. It was a matter of "we live here, you don't."

  13. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Are the only males, welcome (by fans) into the Wonder Woman family ..to be LGBTQA males? When it comes to Wonder-fans, is all masculinity taken for toxic masculinity?
    (A) No. Steve Trevor. And there's been others over the years. Diana just doesn't have a stable supporting cast.

    (B) If you think that "all masculinity" somehow excludes the male LGBT characters, not so. They can be perfectly good examples of non-toxic masculinity - or even, for that matter, toxic masculinity. (I feel that way about Jason, but I'm guessing from comments here that they "matured" him at the same time that they made him - bi? Is he bi? I haven't seen those issues yet.)
    Doctor Bifrost

    "If Roy G. Bivolo had seen some B&W pencil sketches, his whole life would have turned out differently." http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/

  14. #119
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    (A) No. Steve Trevor. And there's been others over the years. Diana just doesn't have a stable supporting cast.

    (B) If you think that "all masculinity" somehow excludes the male LGBT characters, not so. They can be perfectly good examples of non-toxic masculinity - or even, for that matter, toxic masculinity. (I feel that way about Jason, but I'm guessing from comments here that they "matured" him at the same time that they made him - bi? Is he bi? I haven't seen those issues yet.)
    I didn't mean to give the impression that the LGBTQA males aren't masculine. Achilles's gaiety doesn't exclude him from toxic masculinity. He was totally toxic, fighting Geo-Force in Outsiders.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 08-10-2020 at 02:37 AM.

  15. #120
    Incredible Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    I think now we can say for certain that no, they will not be getting their own comic probably ever. And we can also forget about any new family members. It might actually be a blessing in disguise that Diana has a much smaller family than Batman and Superman, at least there's less chance of half of them getting Limbo-ed.

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