Timeline of the New 52 reality's creation

[Sacred Knight]

I know its an opinion, I've never claimed otherwise. If I'm trying to speak of something as objective fact or for some reason feel I have agency to speak for more than just myself, then I'll say that, otherwise its my opinion and mine alone.

As for his role in Bendis's early stories, his role only serves to get the ball rolling into aging him up so Bendis could give him the Legion. His relationship with Jor-El had potential but went nowhere; there wasn't even a resolution to it when Jor-El was sent to die. It meant virtually nothing in the scheme of things. Same with Kathy. Yes early in the Tomasi Superman run that was built up, which then led to, again, nothing. By the second half of the run it was pretty much abandoned. It fed a little bit into TT I think but beyond that Kathy, Hamilton, and the interesting aliens that inhabited the town just became a non-factor. And this before they were removed from the title and had to wrap things up.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I never claimed otherwise. If I'm trying to speak of something as objective fact or for speaking for more than myself then I would have said so.

As for his role in Bendis's early stories, his role only serves to get the ball rolling into aging him up to take on his new Legion role. His relationship with Jor-El had potential but went nowhere; there wasn't even a resolution to it when Jor-El was sent to die. It meant virtually nothing in the scheme of things. Same with Kathy. Yes early in the Tomasi Superman run that was built up, which led to...nothing. By the second half of the run it was pretty much abandoned. It fed a little bit into TT I think but beyond that Kathy, Hamilton, and the interesting aliens that inhabited it just became a non-factor. And this before they were removed from the title and had to wrap things up.

That speaks more to shifting directions of different writers and DC editorial as opposed to any flaws in the character himself. After all, that logic would also dictate that Damian has outlived his usefulness as a character since the original arc he was brought in to tell has run its course. However, he hasn't been discarded because people like him. He's deemed a worthwhile expansion of the Bat-family just by his existence. So, why should Jon be held to a different standard? And that's the point: Jon brings things to the table by the mere fact that he's a character that people like seeing and like having around. He's caught on more than any of the other attempts to give Clark and Lois a child.

[Sacred Knight]

I don't think I'm holding Jon to a different standard. I mean, okay Damian has a built in advantage that even I can admit: he belongs to the Bat line. That's a huge boost right off the bat. But at the same time that's not all he has over Jon as a concept. The character has established, well defined relationships in the Batman mythos, with more than just the main guy. He has strong dynamics with Dick, Tim, Alfred, etc. Those who are important to the Batman line, he's at least interacted with more than once. Also a big thing with Damian, his introduction was organic. It got dropped in Batman's lap, yes, but the explanation made sense and didn't hurt the lore. He was ensconced rather naturally over time. It wasn't a convoluted mess that turned Bat-continuity upside down. I'm not that crazy about his character either and what he's become, but I can admit all that.

Comparing that to Jon: he has a strong relationship with Superman only within his own mythos. As I said before not even with his own mother which is just mind-boggling. I don't even think he's ever said two words to Jimmy. Perry's his godfather and I've seen them in one scene together. Ever. Never seen him interact with Sam Lane, his only grandparent. Kara, a little bit. But that's it for 4 years worth of existence. His introduction was a complete nightmare when it was added to an already shaky post-Infinite Crisis-based continuity (We saw a now-depreciated version's birth, but even that jumped forward next time we visited them and they took over the titles before the merger). We can get in-generals, but that's it. It'll never feel organic to this continuity, it will never feel like it actually happened. Because it really didn't, it wasn't actually experienced. We didn't experience Damian until adolescence either, but the difference is that neither had Batman or any of his supporting cast. He was introduced to them alongside the audience. We weren't asked to buy that it wasn't just as new to Bruce as it was to us. Here we just had to buy that Lois and Clark just experienced all this time with this kid It just magically happened one day that ten comic years ago Superman and Lois had a baby. It was hollow. And remains hollow. Then I look at things from a practical point of view, sales, and ask has he really done all that much positive toward that? I'd argue not really. Super Sons did okay but nothing special then it was canceled. Has it boosted the Superman books? Not at all. Rebirth as a concept boosted the books but that was because it was a new initiative; they all do that. Things didn't take long to fall back to the mean, just like every other time DC puts forth a new initiative. I'm not saying I doubt he has fans. I know he does, I see them, and that's cool by me. But these things are why I feel his impact has been overstated, alongside with having very specific problems with his existence all the way back to his introduction that just aren't necessarily issues with every new character to a mythos. These are problems that I feel are a result of poor introduction, and overall poor handling.

[boltmonster]

If Flashpoint did not happen and the DC line was not reset, would Lois and Clark having a baby change what has already been done in the books?

[bat39]

What I'd like to know is exactly how did Superman get 'split' into two? And how does the Jor-El/Mr. Oz thing fit into that? And where does Convergence fit in?

[Vordan]

What I'd like to know is exactly how did Superman get 'split' into two? And how does the Jor-El/Mr. Oz thing fit into that? And where does Convergence fit in?

Convergence doesn’t matter at all and has been totally retconned out.

[boltmonster]

When did that happen?

[Sacred Knight]

Superman Reborn. It merged the Convergence Superman and family into main continuity as if they were always the one and only versions. It makes no sense, no elaboration was done on how the split occurred, why, or anything. Probably it was originally supposed to have more to do with Doomsday Clock and perhaps even some elaboration there, but that's not going to happen now since DDC is barely in continuity anymore. DC's moved on from it so likely none of this stuff ever gets elaborated on, including the Jor-El situation. Unless someone else ever comes up with a specific pitch to dive back into it.

As it stands the material we have just generally states they were split, merged together, and continuity was rewritten where this Superman, Lois, and the kid they had was always a part of this world. Part of the reason why his history right now is so irrevocably broken.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I don't think I'm holding Jon to a different standard. I mean, okay Damian has a built in advantage that even I can admit: he belongs to the Bat line. That's a huge boost right off the bat. But at the same time that's not all he has over Jon as a concept. The character has established, well defined relationships in the Batman mythos, with more than just the main guy. He has strong dynamics with Dick, Tim, Alfred, etc. Those who are important to the Batman line, he's at least interacted with more than once. Also a big thing with Damian, his introduction was organic. It got dropped in Batman's lap, yes, but the explanation made sense and didn't hurt the lore. He was ensconced rather naturally over time. It wasn't a convoluted mess that turned Bat-continuity upside down. I'm not that crazy about his character either and what he's become, but I can admit all that.

Except we have the New 52 reboot to thank for AAAAALLLLL of that. If they had simply been allowed to give Lois and Clark a son before Flashpoint, which actually was an idea that had potential despite failed efforts like Chris Kent, it'd be a different story. However, they decided they needed to reboot the entire Superman line because being a happily married man is "gross" to some of those in charge of the Superman comics. And honestly, it was the New 52 that screwed up Superman's continuity (and DC continuity in general). Jon actually helped make Superman's continuity make sense again.

Comparing that to Jon: he has a strong relationship with Superman only within his own mythos. As I said before not even with his own mother which is just mind-boggling.

Again, I really think your personal bias against the very concept of Jon is coloring your perception of facts here. I don't know how anyone can look at moments like this...



...and think that Jon and Lois don't have a good relationship.

Never seen him interact with Sam Lane, his only grandparent.

Sam Lane wasn't his only grandparent and we literally just came off a story that centered on Jon travelling the galaxy with his other grandparent.

His introduction was a complete nightmare when it was added to an already shaky post-Infinite Crisis-based continuity (We saw a now-depreciated version's birth, but even that jumped forward next time we visited them and they took over the titles before the merger). We can get in-generals, but that's it. It'll never feel organic to this continuity, it will never feel like it actually happened. Because it really didn't, it wasn't actually experienced.

Again, you know what is to blame for that. You're just choosing not to name it.

[Sacred Knight]

The New 52 isn't to blame for it at all. If they wanted to give Clark and Lois a son pre-Flashpoint, they could certainly have. They had from summer of 1996 on to do it. But they never did. They let the marriage languish into irrelevancy and that's on them. Come 2011 things were in shambles line wide and some sort of change was needed. The New 52 didn't infringe on anything on the front of creating a family. Years of previous inaction did before the New 52 was a sparkle in Dan Didio's eye. Besides you would have run into similar problems if their aim back then had also been finding a way to age him fast just so Damian could have a friend and there could be a new Superboy. The reboot had absolutely nothing to do with the how of his creation and how they chose to insert him haphazardly into an existing narrative. I'm choosing not to name it because its completely irrelevant. As things truly went down, these problems are the fault of Jurgens and his pitch of how to bring the Convergence characters into the Rebirth world and editorial for green lighting a very ill-prepared idea.

The New 52 is also not responsible for the mess that pre-FP continuity was before it was even put into practice. Superman #200 was responsible for that. Infinite Crisis was responsible for that. Secret Origin was responsible for that. And its not responsible for the continued mess its been in since its been brought back with the extra added wrinkle of Jon to it. New 52 Superman's continuity had problems of its own due to DC's ineptness, but blaming it on problems that predated it by years is ludicrous. And how in the world does Jon help make it make more sense when his very existence rewrites the shoddy continuity as it previously existed in the first place? That doesn't track at all.

And I meant to say Sam was his only human grandparent. My mistake. But I had highlighted previously why the Jor-El relationship was poorly developed and ultimately fell flat as well. From an interview today I guess Bendis is planning on telling more stories of that time at a later date. If that happens, fair enough there. But we'll see. He seems more interested in the Earth 3 years as opposed to time with Jor-El.

And one panel does not an intriguing dynamic make. Lois didn't get a fraction of the time with Jon that Clark got. One page is fine, but I'm talking lack of other built dynamics over a span of four year. Where I will back up is that its worth mentioning the original Lois and Clark mini did do diligence for Lois as a mother. But its been very few and far between since. So I stand my statement that his only strong and cultivated relationship in the Superman books is his father. And I would disagree that my dislike of him is coloring my points. Rather its these specific points which are why I dislike him and always have.

[Lee Stone]

The word balloon on the last panel is pointed to the wrong person.
Had to read it twice when it didn't make sense.
Hate when editors miss things like that.

[boltmonster]

Let's get back on track guys...


DC has shown that Doctor Manhattan fiddled with the DCU to help create the New 52.

But when did he show up?

Before or after Flashpoint 5?
Did he create Pandora and tell her to tell Barry that three timelines needed to be combined?

Did he show up during DC Universe: Rebirth and decided to start there?

Doomy Clock 10 gives us DC history from outside DC reality. Does that mean Doctor Manhattan is between our reality and DC reality?

What is your theory?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The New 52 isn't to blame for it at all.

You're kidding, right? The entire reason they even had to do the whole merger thing was because of the fact that New 52 Superman was dead and this was Pre-Flashpoint Superman as a refugee from the timestream. If they had never rebooted, they'd have been able to introduce Jon like a regular character, even if they did end up aging him up.

If they wanted to give Clark and Lois a son pre-Flashpoint, they could certainly have. They had from summer of 1996 on to do it. But they never did. They let the marriage languish into irrelevancy and that's on them.

Actually, they did. Remember Chris?

The New 52 is also not responsible for the mess that pre-FP continuity was before it was even put into practice. And its not responsible for the continued mess its been in since its been brought back with the extra added wrinkle of Jon to it. New 52 Superman's continuity had problems of its own due to DC's ineptness, but blaming it on problems that predated it by years is ludicrous.

So, the New 52 wasn't responsible for a truncated timeline that made much of the apparently still-in-continuity Batman and Green Lantern mythology make no sense?? The New 52 wasn't responsible for the erasure of major story arcs that the DCU depended on in order to maintain some semblance of a recognizable mythos?? The Death of Superman being gone didn't make Hal's time as Parallax make no sense? The New Teen Titans being gone didn't call into question Dick's graduation from Robin to Nightwing and how in the world he apparently still had a history with Starfire? There wasn't massive confusion over what happened with Barbara Gordon's time in the wheelchair after Killing Joke?

Yeah, its one thing to like the New 52 or even to point out that it wasn't the origin of DC's problems, but to say that it didn't contribute plenty to the current continuity problems DC is facing is just ignoring the facts.

And how in the world does Jon help make it make more sense when his very existence rewrites the shoddy continuity as it previously existed in the first place? That doesn't track at all.

Because he actually forced the timeline to expand beyond the five year restriction put in place during the New 52.

And I meant to say Sam was his only human grandparent. My mistake. But I had highlighted previously why the Jor-El relationship was poorly developed and ultimately fell flat as well. From an interview today I guess Bendis is planning on telling more stories of that time at a later date. If that happens, fair enough there. But we'll see. He seems more interested in the Earth 3 years as opposed to time with Jor-El.

Except that still means his plans cement Jon as a feature of Superman's mythos.

And one panel does not an intriguing dynamic make. Lois didn't get a fraction of the time with Jon that Clark got.

Except it wasn't just one panel. You're just ignoring the fact that, yes, they had an established relationship simply because you don't like the concept of Jon as a character.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Let's get back on track guys...


DC has shown that Doctor Manhattan fiddled with the DCU to help create the New 52.

But when did he show up?

Before or after Flashpoint 5?
Did he create Pandora and tell her to tell Barry that three timelines needed to be combined?

Did he show up during DC Universe: Rebirth and decided to start there?

Doomy Clock 10 gives us DC history from outside DC reality. Does that mean Doctor Manhattan is between our reality and DC reality?

What is your theory?

He showed up right when Superman made his "original" debut. He did his meddling when Barry messed with the timeline during Flashpoint.

[Yoda]

Let's get back on track guys...


DC has shown that Doctor Manhattan fiddled with the DCU to help create the New 52.

But when did he show up?

Before or after Flashpoint 5?
Did he create Pandora and tell her to tell Barry that three timelines needed to be combined?

Did he show up during DC Universe: Rebirth and decided to start there?

Doomy Clock 10 gives us DC history from outside DC reality. Does that mean Doctor Manhattan is between our reality and DC reality?

What is your theory?

He popped over into the DCU Metaverse in 1938 right when Superman first debuted, essentially in realtime. He then seems to have bounced around the timeline observing how the Metaverse reshaped itself around Superman's existence (all the photos he left as calling cards) and even observed how outside forces like the Anti-Monitor and Extant altered things. He then meddled himself, going back in time to cause Alan Scotts death, presumably the deaths of the Kent's and erased the legion of superheroes. Isolating Superman and creating what would become the New 52 version. That in turn caused the universe to restructure around Superman again through Flashpoint and created the New 52. I think in universe Manhattan's meddling with Superman caused Flashpoint essentially.

I expect the Metaverse itself "saved" the aspects of Superman Manhattan excised and created what we presumed to be the pre-flashpoint Lois & Clark who existed in secret within the New 52 verse. The merger was the Metaverse reasserting itself against Manhattan's meddling. It restored the timeline as it progressed, we as readers just didn't get to see it naturally occur. We've only seen the altered version. We've had an unreliable narrator from 2011-2016.