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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    Oh! [[enthusiastic nostalgia noises]]



    Oh. [[remembering-old-pain nostalgia noises]]


    It's weird to think back to that time - it was so big and exciting with so many elements people wanted to see. Hush, Pyg, James Gordon Jr.... Even Tim Drake was back in the bat-books for the first time since the New 52! It was before Harper was so badly mishandled that people got bored of her and people were keen to see what was going to happen - and it was packed full of great ideas. Seeley's "King Croc" stuff, the Penguin and Catwoman as the face of "gimmick" crime that played by the rules vs Mobster Crime that got kids caught in the crossfire at the park....

    But it all went a bit wrong, and by the end nobody seemed to care. They didn't know at the outset how many issues they had to fill, and it showed (IIRC it got extended, and then shortened again) - and so characters like Hush get sort of lost in the mush in the middle, but by the time Lincoln March and the Owls turn up at the end there's not enough page space to do anything with them.

    Also, my personal hot take, this was the Owls' big chance to solidify themselves as a Batman mainstay - their Big Second Story. It was at exactly the right time, it was a big plot that suited them, and - at least at one point - it seemed like it was going to weave in Tynions "Court Of Owls" spin-off "Talon" series and feature Calvin Rose (remember him?). Perhaps when they thought they could use Dick, and they'd go Full Sequel on the impact of the original plotline on the Bat Family?

    But they muffed it - they barely feature, and Lincoln March is slightly contemptuously disposed of. Before returning in the similarly "clearly not all they hoped" Robin War, and being similarly contemptuously disposed of by Raptor in Seeley's "Nightwing". And now the Owls and Talons are reduced to page-filling cameos, and menacing Ric Grayson.



    At the time, I felt that - for all it's faults - Batman And Robin Eternal was more focussed and had the more interesting premise and character line-up. But looking back, I wonder if I'd feel more warmly disposed to the first weekly if I revisited it....




    (Truth be told, every weekly since 52 seems to have been a really good idea that ended up a big missed opportunity. I don't think "Future's End" even had a proper ending, did it? Weird to think that they were The Future once.)
    Yeah, Calvin Rose was in Eternal too, but only at the last issue, saving Jason and Babs. I thought he'd be involved more also, especially because during the Batsgiving promo people are speculating if the blond handsome guy is Rose or Dick. (It's pretty obviously Dick btw just because of the mask)

    When the preview came out I was like "this again?" at the sight of Gotham destroyed, but the list of villains can't help but hype me up. I didn't expect the Gotham burning happened at the very last issue though. I thought the climax and reveal feels really rushed.

    Quote Originally Posted by redmax99 View Post
    they're using jason in batgirl right now
    Oh yeah, I think I saw that panel

  2. #17
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbats View Post
    Oh wow! I heard rumours about Crystal being Cluemaster, but I never heard about the Colony being an idea for Batman Eternal. That would've been cool (not that it wasn't in Detective Comics)). It makes me wonder what Tynion's got up his sleeve for his Batman run.
    I mean, in my longboxes, I file Tynion's Tec run immediately after the two Eternals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    At the time, I felt that - for all it's faults - Batman And Robin Eternal was more focussed and had the more interesting premise and character line-up. But looking back, I wonder if I'd feel more warmly disposed to the first weekly if I revisited it....
    Very interesting. As a Steph fan, I find Eternal a bit more exciting, though I loved the stuff done with Cass in BRE. But looking back on it...I just don't care about Mother. I think all the villains used in Eternal 1 much more interesting, even with the confusion of the last three months of the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Yeah, Calvin Rose was in Eternal too, but only at the last issue, saving Jason and Babs. I thought he'd be involved more also, especially because during the Batsgiving promo people are speculating if the blond handsome guy is Rose or Dick. (It's pretty obviously Dick btw just because of the mask)

    When the preview came out I was like "this again?" at the sight of Gotham destroyed, but the list of villains can't help but hype me up. I didn't expect the Gotham burning happened at the very last issue though. I thought the climax and reveal feels really rushed.
    Yup, I think Calvin showed up in both Eternal last issues. Sadly, I think Tynion felt he shouldn't be self indulgent and give Calvin more of a role, even though he would have been a nice leadin to the "real" conspiracy.

    I thought the climax was reasonably well paced - and it's sad, but I've gotten used to Gotham being torn up and then right back to normal right afterwards. I liked that in Detective Comics, they actually had the devastation of Night of the Monster Men play a big part of future storylines. That was really smart writing by Tynion, I think.
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  3. #18
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I mean, in my longboxes, I file Tynion's Tec run immediately after the two Eternals.
    That's the proper reading order IMHO; they fit so well together.

    I give Eternal a break because it was the first weekly series after so long and I believe the first in the New 52 era.

  4. #19

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    It's one of few blockbuster mystery-type stories in recent memory that actually has a decent and satisfying conclusion, and it was fun following it week-to-week, but you could easily tear out a fourth or so of the issues without it making much of a difference.
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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I mean, in my longboxes, I file Tynion's Tec run immediately after the two Eternals.



    Very interesting. As a Steph fan, I find Eternal a bit more exciting, though I loved the stuff done with Cass in BRE. But looking back on it...I just don't care about Mother. I think all the villains used in Eternal 1 much more interesting, even with the confusion of the last three months of the book.



    Yup, I think Calvin showed up in both Eternal last issues. Sadly, I think Tynion felt he shouldn't be self indulgent and give Calvin more of a role, even though he would have been a nice leadin to the "real" conspiracy.

    I thought the climax was reasonably well paced - and it's sad, but I've gotten used to Gotham being torn up and then right back to normal right afterwards. I liked that in Detective Comics, they actually had the devastation of Night of the Monster Men play a big part of future storylines. That was really smart writing by Tynion, I think.
    As long as every character has an appropriate page time, it won't feel self-indulgent. Each character in Eternal has a role that's pretty balanced. Babs was looking for who framed her dad, Jason was called in to rein her in and Batwoman helped, Luke investigates Arkham with Spectre, Tim and Harper investigate the nanobots, Steph and Selina were involved with Gotham underground, while Bruce and Julia oversee Gotham. I guess that's all the plot points covered.

    Self-indulgent is inserting Harper for Perfect Robin narrative in the second Eternal, especially with Damian and Steph, the other Robins, out of the picture for most of the story. Since Steph was never Robin in this new continuity, her being chosen as the Perfect Robin would be better fanservice, though that means they can't use Cass to kill the mother. I don't think I would mind Harper's plot point in Eternal if Steph and Damian are more involved, and that there's an acknowledgment of Steph's Robin role somehow as fanservice.

    I don't mind Night of The Monster Men because they're feeling the effect until later, and I don't mind Eternal's midpoint Arkham disaster because we also see the effect not only in Eternal but also Arkham Manor and Gotham by Midnight. The instant revivals are the one I don't like.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Arkham Manor was pretty neat and it ended too soon. Felt like a throwaway that way.
    Hush was decent in Eternal.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    As long as every character has an appropriate page time, it won't feel self-indulgent. Each character in Eternal has a role that's pretty balanced. Babs was looking for who framed her dad, Jason was called in to rein her in and Batwoman helped, Luke investigates Arkham with Spectre, Tim and Harper investigate the nanobots, Steph and Selina were involved with Gotham underground, while Bruce and Julia oversee Gotham. I guess that's all the plot points covered
    The problem is that most of theses plots went nowhere and what the characters did didn't really matter for the story.
    In Luke's case they even kind of forgot continue his story at some point.

    The second eternal was a little bit more focused and had less subplots, but even there they didn't really know what to do with Tim and Jason, once their side quest was finished (and I Jason's case they didn't even had much to do for him during that sideplot).

    In general the writers were not that good in using the large cast of characters they had, and depending on who your favourite characters are, the Eternals can be really frustrating.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The problem is that most of theses plots went nowhere and what the characters did didn't really matter for the story.
    In Luke's case they even kind of forgot continue his story at some point.

    The second eternal was a little bit more focused and had less subplots, but even there they didn't really know what to do with Tim and Jason, once their side quest was finished (and I Jason's case they didn't even had much to do for him during that sideplot).

    In general the writers were not that good in using the large cast of characters they had, and depending on who your favourite characters are, the Eternals can be really frustrating.
    You mean they don't continue Luke's story as in what he does personally? Because the whole Arkham part of the story was a set up for Gotham by Midnight, and Jim Corrigan continues there. I honestly forget if Luke was incapacitated or not after the Arkham explosion.

    That sounds like Snyder's problem in general, where he's using characters in order to set up a plot point, and so that plot point is what he pays attention to, kinda like Duke Thomas in general. He did enough to set him up, but after that, he left him with another writer and move on with his worldbuilding.

    Jason's story in the second Eternal if I'm not mistaken is to track down Mother's tech or minions or whatever with Tim, and they ended up in Santa Prisca, which is a set up for Azrael introduction, and then later on again, they end up... somewhere, in the desert, following St. Dumas track? The culmination is him having a hallucination of facing his death again and he had to let it happen instead of fighting it, while Tim helps. Kinda like a therapy... but the therapy of what or for what purpose did they make him have that story I don't remember. After that, his story and mission are done and they gathered at Spyral to share their clues. so the story shifts focus to the main plot.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    You mean they don't continue Luke's story as in what he does personally? Because the whole Arkham part of the story was a set up for Gotham by Midnight, and Jim Corrigan continues there. I honestly forget if Luke was incapacitated or not after the Arkham explosion.
    IIRC Arkham exploded, Luke just didn't appeared for the next maybe 10 issue ir so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Jason's story in the second Eternal if I'm not mistaken is to track down Mother's tech or minions or whatever with Tim, and they ended up in Santa Prisca, which is a set up for Azrael introduction, and then later on again, they end up... somewhere, in the desert, following St. Dumas track? The culmination is him having a hallucination of facing his death again and he had to let it happen instead of fighting it, while Tim helps. Kinda like a therapy... but the therapy of what or for what purpose did they make him have that story I don't remember. After that, his story and mission are done and they gathered at Spyral to share their clues. so the story shifts focus to the main plot.
    To me it felt more like that was Tim's subplot with Jason just put in as comic relief, and one they rejoined the main plot, they kind of shifted in the back ground.
    I mean they had only 5 main characters, it should have been possible to have them all do something meaning full untill the end of the story.

  10. #25
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    As long as every character has an appropriate page time, it won't feel self-indulgent. Each character in Eternal has a role that's pretty balanced. Babs was looking for who framed her dad, Jason was called in to rein her in and Batwoman helped, Luke investigates Arkham with Spectre, Tim and Harper investigate the nanobots, Steph and Selina were involved with Gotham underground, while Bruce and Julia oversee Gotham. I guess that's all the plot points covered.

    Self-indulgent is inserting Harper for Perfect Robin narrative in the second Eternal, especially with Damian and Steph, the other Robins, out of the picture for most of the story. Since Steph was never Robin in this new continuity, her being chosen as the Perfect Robin would be better fanservice, though that means they can't use Cass to kill the mother. I don't think I would mind Harper's plot point in Eternal if Steph and Damian are more involved, and that there's an acknowledgment of Steph's Robin role somehow as fanservice.

    I don't mind Night of The Monster Men because they're feeling the effect until later, and I don't mind Eternal's midpoint Arkham disaster because we also see the effect not only in Eternal but also Arkham Manor and Gotham by Midnight. The instant revivals are the one I don't like.
    A nice analysis. I think you're right about both Eternals - even though I like BRE, Harper's role is quite frustrating for most Cass and Steph fans I've talked to, because it really does take stuff from Steph and Cass without really giving as much unique as I think Harper could (and did in the first Eternal).

    I wasn't a huge fan of Night of the Monster Men as a story itself, but I did really like how it kept playing a significant part in the story as backdrop, not instantly forgotten. Because Batman Eternal had so many writers, and it was coordinated reasonably well with the Bat-office, it was cool seeing how Catwoman, Arkham Manor, Gotham by Midnight all spun out of it. Since Tim Seeley worked on it, it also was referenced strongly in Grayson, so all around a feeling of integration that I feel is fairly rare in the past 5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The problem is that most of theses plots went nowhere and what the characters did didn't really matter for the story.
    In Luke's case they even kind of forgot continue his story at some point.

    The second eternal was a little bit more focused and had less subplots, but even there they didn't really know what to do with Tim and Jason, once their side quest was finished (and I Jason's case they didn't even had much to do for him during that sideplot).

    In general the writers were not that good in using the large cast of characters they had, and depending on who your favourite characters are, the Eternals can be really frustrating.
    To be fair to Tynion and the rest of his team...how many plots actually do go "somewhere" in terms of long term effects? As outlined above, there was a lot of impact for the character's titles, even though, as usual, those impacts generally had to be removed after about a year.

    I don't think Luke's story was forgotton so much as badly spaced out. I personally blame Ray Fawkes, since based on how he wrote his issues, he had the most difficulty connecting with what the other writers were doing, and he was the one who handled most of the Arkham/Luke stuff.

    I'm not particularly a Jason fan, but I really liked his arc with Tim, where he has his breakthrough conquering the fear toxin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    You mean they don't continue Luke's story as in what he does personally? Because the whole Arkham part of the story was a set up for Gotham by Midnight, and Jim Corrigan continues there. I honestly forget if Luke was incapacitated or not after the Arkham explosion.

    That sounds like Snyder's problem in general, where he's using characters in order to set up a plot point, and so that plot point is what he pays attention to, kinda like Duke Thomas in general. He did enough to set him up, but after that, he left him with another writer and move on with his worldbuilding.

    Jason's story in the second Eternal if I'm not mistaken is to track down Mother's tech or minions or whatever with Tim, and they ended up in Santa Prisca, which is a set up for Azrael introduction, and then later on again, they end up... somewhere, in the desert, following St. Dumas track? The culmination is him having a hallucination of facing his death again and he had to let it happen instead of fighting it, while Tim helps. Kinda like a therapy... but the therapy of what or for what purpose did they make him have that story I don't remember. After that, his story and mission are done and they gathered at Spyral to share their clues. so the story shifts focus to the main plot.
    (I still don't get what the point of Duke in Metal was. I suppose that was the point of Batman and the Signal, but that also went nowhere, and he got an entirely new direction with Outsiders.)

    That is Jason's plot - and I enjoyed it. But as I said, I'm not particularly a Jason fan - I like him, but most of the other Batfam are more favorites for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    IIRC Arkham exploded, Luke just didn't appeared for the next maybe 10 issue ir so.

    To me it felt more like that was Tim's subplot with Jason just put in as comic relief, and one they rejoined the main plot, they kind of shifted in the back ground.
    I mean they had only 5 main characters, it should have been possible to have them all do something meaning full untill the end of the story.
    I would argue they had 6 main characters - the four boys, Harper, and Cass. Plus a new villain. And much as I love Tynion, I'm not convinced that plotting is his strongest suit. I think Tim and Jason's subplot was actually reasonably important to the plot, though, since that's how they discovered how to beat Mother's technology.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, by Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown, Batgirl, by Bryan Q. Miller
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  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claude View Post
    Oh! [[enthusiastic nostalgia noises]]



    Oh. [[remembering-old-pain nostalgia noises]]


    It's weird to think back to that time - it was so big and exciting with so many elements people wanted to see. Hush, Pyg, James Gordon Jr.... Even Tim Drake was back in the bat-books for the first time since the New 52! It was before Harper was so badly mishandled that people got bored of her and people were keen to see what was going to happen - and it was packed full of great ideas. Seeley's "King Croc" stuff, the Penguin and Catwoman as the face of "gimmick" crime that played by the rules vs Mobster Crime that got kids caught in the crossfire at the park....

    But it all went a bit wrong, and by the end nobody seemed to care. They didn't know at the outset how many issues they had to fill, and it showed (IIRC it got extended, and then shortened again) - and so characters like Hush get sort of lost in the mush in the middle, but by the time Lincoln March and the Owls turn up at the end there's not enough page space to do anything with them.

    Also, my personal hot take, this was the Owls' big chance to solidify themselves as a Batman mainstay - their Big Second Story. It was at exactly the right time, it was a big plot that suited them, and - at least at one point - it seemed like it was going to weave in Tynions "Court Of Owls" spin-off "Talon" series and feature Calvin Rose (remember him?). Perhaps when they thought they could use Dick, and they'd go Full Sequel on the impact of the original plotline on the Bat Family?

    But they muffed it - they barely feature, and Lincoln March is slightly contemptuously disposed of. Before returning in the similarly "clearly not all they hoped" Robin War, and being similarly contemptuously disposed of by Raptor in Seeley's "Nightwing". And now the Owls and Talons are reduced to page-filling cameos, and menacing Ric Grayson.



    At the time, I felt that - for all it's faults - Batman And Robin Eternal was more focussed and had the more interesting premise and character line-up. But looking back, I wonder if I'd feel more warmly disposed to the first weekly if I revisited it....




    (Truth be told, every weekly since 52 seems to have been a really good idea that ended up a big missed opportunity. I don't think "Future's End" even had a proper ending, did it? Weird to think that they were The Future once.)
    I agree about Future's End being terrible, but surely Batman Eternal was always going to be 52 issues, covering a whole year? I remember that being a big USP and part of the marketing from the start.
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