LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES: MILLENNIUM #2 Preview/(spoiler) discussion

[Superlad93]

I'm aware of the article, but the fact is that people have guessed more than just Mark whoever-the-f%&k to be Leviathan.

Think of it from the perspective of a relatively new reader wanting to get in on this cool new mystery event people are talking about. That new reader is likely just buying the books associated with the event, if not just the event itself, and they are entitled to a complete story, but more importantly that new reader has to have equal power to guess --and guess correctly--"who dun it" or else it's not a solvable mystery book. At that point it's continuity porn for a very small number of people, and an obscure wiki scavenger hunt that leads to a flaccid and unsatisfying ending because, and I reiterate, who in the world is Mark whoever-the-f#%k to your average reader? He's no one, so your reveal gets answered by the reader with a "who" *quick wiki search* followed by a "oh...ok. I guess."

In the comic Bendis even has Damian say "lady, you retired before I was even born. I don't know who you are or why you're in my kitchen..." to Manhunter. If that isn't a perfect summation of what your average young or new comic book reader is thinking while Kate says anything, then I don't know what is. It being Mark would mean even less because he's never even mentioned.

To round it back on topic, I genuinely think it's a future Damian, and issue 1 of Legion Millennium along with the confirmation of Damian visiting Jon in the Legion provides the connective tissue between Leviathan and the Legion like Bendis teased here.

[manwhohaseverything]

I'm aware of the article, but the fact is that people have guessed more than just Mark whoever-the-f%&k to be Leviathan.

Think of it from the perspective of a relatively new reader wanting to get in on this cool new mystery event people are talking about. That new reader is likely just buying the books associated with the event, if not just the event itself, and they are entitled to a complete story, but more importantly that new reader has to have equal power to guess --and guess correctly--"who dun it" or else it's not a solvable mystery book. At that point it's continuity porn for a very small number of people, and an obscure wiki scavenger hunt that leads to a flaccid and unsatisfying ending because, and I reiterate, who in the world is Mark whoever-the-f#%k to your average reader? He's no one, so your reveal gets answered by the reader with a "who" *quick wiki search* followed by a "oh...ok. I guess."

In the comic Bendis even has Damian say "lady, you retired before I was even born. I don't know who you are or why you're in my kitchen..." to Manhunter. If that isn't a perfect summation of what your average young or new comic book reader is thinking while Kate says anything, then I don't know what is. It being Mark would mean even less because he's never even mentioned.

To round it back on topic, I genuinely think it's a future Damian, and issue 1 of Legion Millennium along with the confirmation of Damian visiting Jon in the Legion provides the connective tissue between Leviathan and the Legion like Bendis teased here.

I guess. But, bendis can always do the whole reintroduction thing. I mean, he is reintroducing legion. And as said many people have been saying its damian. If it was Bendis would have said many guessed and not couple of people. There were only a few who guessed it was mark.

[GSman]

You know what that is a fair point, I suppose either could happen and we have to wait and see what Bendis has in store for Damian. Personally though I’m hoping he can be a member alongside Jon.

That would be great, but Damian has a role to fill in the present and that's being Robin, so I don't think editorial will let him part from his father completely. Batman will always need his Robin, and unless they plan on making a new one, that's Damian. Superman on the other hand, has survived over 80 years without a side kick, so Jon probably isn't required to stay in the past like Damian. So even if Damian doesn't join, him having occasional team ups would be a nice consolation prize.

[manwhohaseverything]

That would be great, but Damian has a role to fill in the present and that's being Robin, so I don't think editorial will let him part from his father completely. Batman will always need his Robin, and unless they plan on making a new one, that's Damian. Superman on the other hand, has survived over 80 years without a side kick, so Jon probably isn't required to stay in the past like Damian. So even if Damian doesn't join, him having occasional team ups would be a nice consolation prize.

You forgot superman's pal Jimmy olsen. The greatest sidekick a man could have.

[Blue22]

Supersons did jack when it came to character progression. It turned Damian into a pathetic caricature of himself so Jon could shine. It had awful storylines.

Oh... AND IT MADE NO FUCKING SENSE !

People here are loosing it because Bendis had Jon going to space with his grandpa. Meanwhile, in Superson, he adventures around the Multiverse, the Universe and get lost for a long time, without anyone battling an eye. But it's okay because it's kid Jon ! That's not at all hypocritical, nope, not at all, of course.

The Supersons series did nothing for those characters, they did nothing tonot make them unidimensional "kids having adventures". Not matter how much I may like Tomasi and Gleason work on Damian during New 52, the Supersons issues were atrocious. Bland, dumb, and pathetic. All those who rave about it were clearly never Damian fans and didn't mind that his character was destroyed or mutilated to allow the newest one to leech off his popularity and rise himself. At least, Bendis has put a stop to it.

Twice, I typed out a long response to this and both times, my phone refreshed before I could finish. So here's the cliffnotes version for now:

1. Nobody's mad about Jon going into space. He does that all the time. Aside from the aftermath, people are upset because the whole situation made Lois and Clark look like incompetent and uncaring parents. Neither of them knew Jor El and the last time they saw him was far from a pleasant experience, and yet they were okay with letting him take their child. This is just one more example of a big problem I've had with Bendis' writing even back when he was with Marvel. A lot of his plots hinge on the people involved making the dumbest, most out of character decisions they could possibly make. Nowhere is that more prevalent than in his X-Men, Civil War II (aka the character assassination of Carol Danvers), and Superman. Honestly, I'd have liked it better if Jor El had straight up kidnapped Jon. At least then my respect for Lois and Clark would still be intact

2. Another pet peeve of mine is this awful, gatekeeping "real fan" mentality. Not that I need to explain myself but yes, I am a HUGE Damian fan. I have been ever since Morrison's Batman and Robin. And I still absolutely love Super Sons. It is one of my favorite Damian books. I don't like his characterization in either of his recent Teen Titans runs but I wouldn't say people who do aren't his fans. I loathe this new Jon but I wouldn't say anyone who doesn't isn't really a Jon fan. And I damn sure wouldn't say anyone who liked HiC isn't a Wally fan. That attitude is just childish and petty. And given how I refused to read New 52 Titans for the longest time because I hated how it looked, I'd know all about childish and petty lol (of course, once I got ever that, the book ended up being crap anyway)

3. I've heard these complaints about how Damian is characterized in Super Sons before and I just don't see it. Could the series have done more to develop both boys? Yes. That's one of my only criticisms. We needed more storylines like the one with Talia. But I don't think the series was ever detrimental to Damian as a character. Nor do I think he was ever made to look bad just for the sake of making Jon look better. I think Super Sons brought out a different side of Damian, no doubt. But I don't think it was bad. In fact it's one of my favorite things about his relationship with Jon. It let's him be something he's never really been allowed to be before. A kid. And for a character who never got to have a traditional childhood, I thought it was really sweet how he was able to build this friendship and have fun and get a break from all the doom and gloom in his life. And when you think about it like that... it's actually kinda heartbreaking. For him, being with Jon was an escape. One that he deserved after everything he's been through. And that's why I really appreciate their friendship. Almost as much as his relationship with Dick....ALMOST. It's Damian being able to let lower his guard around someone outside the Batfamily. To just have fun and be a 13 year old for a change. The only real downside is that it undercuts the friends Damian made before Jon (Maya, Suren, and Colin. The latter doesn't even exist anymore). He definitely wasn't "destroyed" or "mutilated"

[Korath]

Twice, I typed out a long response to this and both times, my phone refreshed before I could finish. So here's the cliffnotes version for now:

1. Nobody's mad about Jon going into space. He does that all the time.

Yes he does. That's why losing it because he goes, for once, with an actual adult who knows what he's doing in space, has a spaceship and has demonstrated that, no matter how misguided he may be, he'll never try to hurt the boy his far better than the absolute garbage that was Superson, where Jon not only rush in space like there is no tomorrow, but does so unsupervised, dragging with him a person who can't endure the vacuum of space or the trillions of other dangers found in alien worlds. Not everyone is a Kryptonian ! But somehow, it's funny and inconsequential so it gets a pass but also, somehow, it's also good progression for the characters. Which is hypocrisy at its finest to me.

Also, I still maintain that Damian in Supersons (both series) isn't the real Damian, like this Ian character in the Ink (or Zoom?) book.

Damian doesn't need to be acting like a child. He shouldn't even be acting like one. It's not who he is, it's not what makes him interesting. Playing up the discrepancies between his age and his outlook on life, personality and behavior is good (like when Maya made him lose his final baby teeth - I don't know the English term, we call it dents de lait in French) because it's both unnerving and strangely impressive to see a child/teenager having both those moments of innocence (not childish innocence either, but always something very deep and emotional) contrasted with is usually ruthless behavior. But to me it's clear that Damian whole personality, outlook and behavior runs contrary to him not only wanting but acting like a child.

He can have some quirk, like playing games secretly but even that isn't limited to kids. But having him behave like a teen years old and enjoying it, when he wasn't turned into a senile old fool or otherwise ridiculed, was a disservice to the character. Not all kids needs to be acting like one, when their background and development run contrary to it.

[Blue22]

Yes he does. That's why losing it because he goes, for once, with an actual adult who knows what he's doing in space, has a spaceship and has demonstrated that, no matter how misguided he may be, he'll never try to hurt the boy

Did...you ignore everything I posted after the part you quoted? Like... I'll be happy to reiterate but still...damn, son.

Nevermind the fact that Tomasi's run showed that Clark already takes Jon on trips off-planet, the problem was never "Jon in space". The problem was with the characterization of his parents and their unusual willingness to put their trust in Jor El. Let's not try and paint the guy as some stable genius who anyone should trust with their kid. He wasn't and he never presented himself to Lois and Clark as that. These two never trusted or liked him, and for good reason. He never made amends from their last encounter. And yet all it took were some tears from Jon and a lie about still being upset over the Titans and suddenly they're like "yeah okay. It's cool. Take the brat". Low and behold, Jor El wound up proving their trust was, indeed, misplaced. As Jon comes back with a whole 7 years of time with his parents gone. That's what the problem was. It painted his parents as uncaring morons. Especially after Lois went with them and then decided to go home, by herself. And that is a very constant Bendis problem. When he can't think of a good reason for something to happen, he makes everyone stupid. Even though there were a million other ways he could have done that.

his far better than the absolute garbage that was Superson, where Jon not only rush in space like there is no tomorrow, but does so unsupervised, dragging with him a person who can't endure the vacuum of space or the trillions of other dangers found in alien worlds. Not everyone is a Kryptonian ! But somehow, it's funny and inconsequential so it gets a pass but also, somehow, it's also good progression for the characters. Which is hypocrisy at its finest to me.

As far as I recall, they never really had a choice in the matter whenever they went into space or dimension hopping or whatever. It's not like Jon decided on a whim "hey Damian, let's go on a space adventure". It was always some kind of mishap or villain that landed them wherever they ended up. I will say though, I was kinda bothered (once again) by the little amount of concern their parents showed when they went missing for an entire summer. That whole last arc was just...not very good.

Also, I still maintain that Damian in Supersons (both series) isn't the real Damian, like this Ian character in the Ink (or Zoom?) book.

Damian doesn't need to be acting like a child. He shouldn't even be acting like one. It's not who he is, it's not what makes him interesting. Playing up the discrepancies between his age and his outlook on life, personality and behavior is good (like when Maya made him lose his final baby teeth - I don't know the English term, we call it dents de lait in French) because it's both unnerving and strangely impressive to see a child/teenager having both those moments of innocence (not childish innocence either, but always something very deep and emotional) contrasted with is usually ruthless behavior. But to me it's clear that Damian whole personality, outlook and behavior runs contrary to him not only wanting but acting like a child.

He can have some quirk, like playing games secretly but even that isn't limited to kids. But having him behave like a teen years old and enjoying it, when he wasn't turned into a senile old fool or otherwise ridiculed, was a disservice to the character. Not all kids needs to be acting like one, when their background and development run contrary to it.

Now see, that is a WAY more understandable and thought out argument than "This Damian sucks! If you like him, you're not a real fan!".

I don't even have an argument against what you said other than the fact that I just don't feel the same way.

I definitely see where you're coming from and I agree to a certain extent. Part of Damian's charm is that he's a child who tries to be way older than he actually is. It's both endearing and kinda tragic when you think about why he is the way he is. He's not a normal kid and he never will be. But I appreciate him being able to get some sense of normalcy and happiness with someone who he can let his walls down for, even if it's just a little. I think it adds layers to the character rather than subtract. And it's not like he's some happy-go-lucky, unrecognizable, white washed version of himself like "Ian". He is still very much Damian Wayne. At least to me. Complete with all the snark and ego that we've come to associate with the character. He's just...softened up a little when he's around Jon. And I like that. Jon's not even the first character he's done this for. Dick, Maya, his pets, Alfred, even Bruce sometimes. There's a side to Damian that is genuinely happy and enjoys life. It just doesn't come out a lot.

[Desmark]

I wonder if Mark Shaw will be Bendis's pet grey character whom he will push every opportunity he gets and hump. At Marvel it used to be Hood.(Of Course that is dependent on Leviathan being Mark but then Bendis has always liked to hump obscure characters no one cared about and retconing them to fit his narrative. Bet we are in for some Bendis character porn and he will have made up some kind of mind numbing **** about the characters which completely contrasts previous characterization though the way he asked permission to depict Booster in a certain way from Dan does indicate that maybe he won't indulge in his typical shenanigans as much as he used to. His portrayal of Michael may not fit in with booster's characterization but after King almost anyone would be a improvement.

[Ascended]

The name Mark Shaw hasn't even been mentioned the the actual book. I doubt it's him. I mean, how would anyone without an encyclopedic knowledge of the DCU know to guess that? I've been reading comics for a while and I didn't even know who that is. Just think of what that reveal would be like "gasp! It was Mark Shaw the whole time!?" Literally anyone reading: "who?"

I've heard the Mark Shaw theory, and it could make sense. It'd be maybe motivation for framing Kate Spencer perhaps. But I don't think it's Shaw either; far as I know his name hasn't been mentioned in anything Bendis is writing and if he pulls Shaw out of his ass that's breaking the rules of mystery narratives. Which I can see him doing but....I dunno, feels like an ass pull to me?

I mean, Powergirl, right? Leviathan would also function as a sort of temptation for our Damian especially if Leviathan maintains their relative non-violence and eye on changing the world for the better. And I assume he'll largely go by Leviathan rather than Damian.

Well, Power Girl, sure. Fair point. But she's not Kara from the future, she's a completely different individual. We don't look at Supergirl and know she'll grow up to be Karen.

I'm not saying it *won't* be future Damian, but I feel like if it is, that's gonna be putting a noose around the younger version's neck. No one is gonna be interested in his development because we'll know where it's going. Unless they start getting into hypertime shenanigans and going all "Future Trunks" on us anyway. But I'm not sure if Event Leviathan is that kind of story. We'll see in a few more issues I guess.

[Sacred Knight]

Realistically, I think time travel and alternate versions should be out. That includes Damian and Jon, or any other of the more wacky ideas, some of which I've of course put forth for fun. But really I agree with Ascended that I don't think at its heart its that type of story. It ties into those types of tales by association of Superman and Doomsday Clock, yes, but the core of it and why it was born appears to be a spy story to streamline the agencies.

I'm convinced it has something heavily to do with Manhunter lore, even if its connective tissue lies in going back to highly differing incarnations of said lore, and in the end will point more toward that than a Bat-explanation or a Super-explanation or whatever. That's my gut at this point. This is one reason that I'm curious to see if a GL element surprisingly comes into play. A part of Manhunter lore ties into that, all depending on what version you're using.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think leviathan is :drumrolls: bibbo. I mean, leviathan is clearly a superman fan. He might even be a regular comic book reader.

[Jackalope89]

I think leviathan is :drumrolls: bibbo. I mean, leviathan is clearly a superman fan. He might even be a regular comic book reader.

Please. Its obvious who it is;

Future Trunks. Time travel, a hero that doesn't mind more permanent solutions to evil, manhandled Talia with ease, likeable enough to get a lot of people on his side, and is very OOC because Bendis is writing him.

[manwhohaseverything]

Please. Its obvious who it is;

Future Trunks. Time travel, a hero that doesn't mind more permanent solutions to evil, manhandled Talia with ease, likeable enough to get a lot of people on his side, and is very OOC because Bendis is writing him.

By trunks do you mean? Dear god!! I knew those red underoos were a menace!

[Ascended]

Please. Its obvious who it is;

Future Trunks. Time travel, a hero that doesn't mind more permanent solutions to evil, manhandled Talia with ease, likeable enough to get a lot of people on his side, and is very OOC because Bendis is writing him.

But....does Leviathan have a large sword that he almost never uses?

No sword = not Future Trunks.

Man, I almost wish this theory could be true, just so we could see "dad" come to visit. Batman and Vegeta interacting would be f*cking fantastic!

[Desmark]

It's the superboy prime version of Jon which was created by his grandfather for shits and giggles during the space sojourn. He will end up beating a elderly version of superdad dead who has travelled back in time to stop him and start again with prime earth Superman only for Rogol Zarr to arrive and save him revealing that he is a clone of Superman and Doomsday.