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  1. #31
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Yeah, good points. That it shouldn't even be accepted in their crazy fictional world, but that it happens anyway. Thanks for sharing that, Nelliebly.

    Clark having the sensitivity and reflexes to almost perfectly pass as a normal human in all other, completely physical interactions might not seem fair, but I wouldn't get why it should be fair.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Yeah, good points. That it shouldn't even be accepted in their crazy fictional world, but that it happens anyway. Thanks for sharing that, Nelliebly.

    Clark having the sensitivity and reflexes to almost perfectly pass as a normal human in all other, completely physical interactions might not seem fair, but I wouldn't get why it should be fair.
    Thanks for listening. And I should also share that this is why I get pretty bent out of shape when I see that age old argument that “Superman shouldn’t be with Lois because she can’t have his kids/will age and die” pops up. It’s an awful thing to throw around and it’s still, sadly, pretty prevalent in certain fandom circles. Outside of being a super mean and shallow thing to say about any relationship or marriage, it’s actively hurtful to women like me who struggled a really, really long time with infertility.

    I would add that Smallville actually did address this idea throughout the series. Clark spends most of the series worried and scared that he will be alone. In addition to finally realizing that he can be at “home” with Lois, he learns in season 7 that a Kryptonian has fathered a son with a human through the use of Blue K. It’s a short moment but you see in that moment the emotion on his face when he realizes that fatherhood is possible for him and it’s beautiful. Therefore, when Lois and Clark make plans to have children together in season 10, the show has already established that they can.

  3. #33
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    As someone who experienced years of painful and terrible infertility with my own husband, I feel the exact opposite. They should absolutely be able to have a biological child distinctly for all the reasons you listed.

    This is a story about the impossible. About hope. Love conquers all. The idea that, in this story, odds could be stacked against them and they could, by some miracle, have a child is very inspiring and important to me.

    And I’m here to tell you that you can be told you will never have a child and then...miracles happen. It makes no sense to me to accept all of his other powers—all of which are literal miracles—and then draw the line at him having a biological child with the woman he loves thereby fulfilling the extension of his people and joining earth and Kryton as one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Thanks for listening. And I should also share that this is why I get pretty bent out of shape when I see that age old argument that “Superman shouldn’t be with Lois because she can’t have his kids/will age and die” pops up. It’s an awful thing to throw around and it’s still, sadly, pretty prevalent in certain fandom circles. Outside of being a super mean and shallow thing to say about any relationship or marriage, it’s actively hurtful to women like me who struggled a really, really long time with infertility.

    I would add that Smallville actually did address this idea throughout the series. Clark spends most of the series worried and scared that he will be alone. In addition to finally realizing that he can be at “home” with Lois, he learns in season 7 that a Kryptonian has fathered a son with a human through the use of Blue K. It’s a short moment but you see in that moment the emotion on his face when he realizes that fatherhood is possible for him and it’s beautiful. Therefore, when Lois and Clark make plans to have children together in season 10, the show has already established that they can.
    Hi, thanks or sharing. What I said was never intended to offend or be taken in a real world context, and if I have upset you in any way I wholeheartedly apologise.

    I unthinkingly chucked out a somewhat tongue in cheek thing that kinda irks me (but I honestly rarely think about and definitely don't feel passionate about).

    I didn't say anything about not using crazy Kryptionian devices and such to help Clark and Lois have a child (I probably should have been clearer), and I'd never say he shouldn't be with Lois. I am big on Lois & Clark, and have always been strongly behind their marriage. I appreciate the standpoint of a 1/1,000,000 chance thing that happens because he's Superman and doing the impossible is his thing.

    I'm just going to leave it there before I put my foot in my mouth again.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    A lot's been said much better than I can muster past Midnight, but I'll chime in with my two cents.

    With respect to Clark's alien biology, one thing gets passed around that has always bothered me: he can't feel bullets.

    This makes no sense in a world where he can feel someone's hand in his, or pretty much any physical contact. I understand that it stands to reason that if he can't feel a bullet connect with his eyeball then he wouldn't feel Lois kissing him, but it's also tragically cold for a Superman concept so I don't care for it. Instead, I imagine they and pretty much a ton of blunt force trauma feels like a light graze to him. He can feel the bullets make contact, the brief burst of heat from when they stop dead in their tracks and it registers as much pain as gently holding an infant's hand. He feels it, but it doesn't hurt. I don't want to live in a world where a tearful Martha Kent embraced her son after he returned from the grave and he felt absolutely no physical sensation from her hugging him with everything she had. That's too depressing.

    I'd also prefer if he actually does need to eat, sleep and so on. I imagine the sun can actually keep him going but not at top performance. Think of someone being fed through a tube as opposed to eating a properly balanced and prepared meal. Prolonged absence from food or rest would have him start to significantly slow down, albeit after a lengthy time. He may die from starvation if he didn't eat a damn thing for, I don't know, a month? I imagine actually being in the sun pretty much negates his needs, so perhaps it's the intensity of the radiation that should affect how it influences his biology.

    Again, I'm siding a bit more into fantasy than reality here to make him a bit more approachable to a new fan. Clark really should always have one foot in the fantastic and one in the familiar. He's a bridge to something greater, but that bridge needs to feel like something you can actually cross as opposed to admire from afar. This is part of J'onn's problem. He's just a touch too alien for a lot of readers to connect with despite his exceptionally human soul.

    Have I enraged everyone yet? Here's the one I know nobody would care for. I like a Superman with an average lifespan! I think for his story to really inspire the universe, it'd have to be under the same time crunch as anyone else. Probably not hard to imagine the guy who lived for 15,000 years is the greatest legend ever. He'd win by default. If Jon truly is the Superman of tomorrow, the Great Disaster happens in the 25th century and so on, Clark's gotta be out of the picture. I don't mind a Superman who lives a great deal longer, but I prefer him to be a man who for all his great powers has to face the final curtain as anyone else. It certainly makes those moments he stops to help someone with car trouble more meaningful-- those seconds are as precious to him as they are to you and yet he-- possibly the busiest, most important man on the planet-- will always offer his time to help anyone in need.

    As for him having sex... I mean, he's had to have broken wind at some point in his life and not leveled a building. He probably sneezes and doesn't take out an entire city block. He has every other possible muscle controlled to function as any of us do, so I imagine he can slow down. Honestly I don't care much how or why, it's really peeking too far behind the curtain, but one can infer that it's possible for him to control that when he does so in every other facet of his life.

    Balance is key with Clark to make him interesting; go too far into the alien nature of his character and he really can come across as the overly perfect wish fulfillment cypher for children he's often criticized as. Stray too far from it and, well, he's the same as any other meta. Even though it's all different under the hood, he looks exactly like us and Kryptonian DNA is close enough to humans to produce healthy offspring. He shouldn't be that different in function even if his bone density, organs and so on are likely really bizarre.
    In Smallville, the first time Clark got hit by bullets he felt them and he had bruises on his skin afterwards.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Hi, thanks or sharing. What I said was never intended to offend or be taken in a real world context, and if I have upset you in any way I wholeheartedly apologise.

    I unthinkingly chucked out a somewhat tongue in cheek thing that kinda irks me (but I honestly rarely think about and definitely don't feel passionate about).

    I didn't say anything about not using crazy Kryptionian devices and such to help Clark and Lois have a child (I probably should have been clearer), and I'd never say he shouldn't be with Lois. I am big on Lois & Clark, and have always been strongly behind their marriage. I appreciate the standpoint of a 1/1,000,000 chance thing that happens because he's Superman and doing the impossible is his thing.

    I'm just going to leave it there before I put my foot in my mouth again.
    Oh my goshóno worries! I didnít think you were mean at all. I was just sharing a different POV and why some of these convos take on a deeper meaning for someone like me.

    For what itís worth, as someone who had to go through IVF, I am a big fan of Morrisonís approach in All Star Superman. You could see he planted the seed there for some kind of IVF that would help them conceive and I would love to see that play out some day. Tbh, it would be a great opportunity for a story to address these very important issues and it would mean the world to me to see it.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    I think if Lois gets pregnant with Clark's baby, it could help if the fetus isn't super with powers until after he is born and his powers develop slowly like Clark. The baby probably have less powers or different ones because he's not pure Kryptonian. Lois had Jason in Superman Returns, and he was kind of sickly as a kid. His genes were maybe trying to adjust to Earth.

  7. #37
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In Smallville, the first time Clark got hit by bullets he felt them and he had bruises on his skin afterwards.
    Sure, but I think that no matter how strong he gets, even after a multimillenial sundip, he still registers them hitting him. Again, he needs to be able to pass as human in society. He needs to be able to feel someone touch him, ergo he needs to be able to register any physical contact or mild heat. It shouldn't ever really provide discomfort, however. "It tickles" indeed.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I actually agree with both of you. I do think it should be basically impossible for Kryptonians to reproduce with humans. But I also think Clark and Lois should beat the odds. Because he's Superman; he does the impossible every day.

    I'd like to play it so that Clark believes his whole life that he can't have kids. He and Lois deal with that and make their peace with it, etc etc. And then, after they've been together for years, boom, they hit the odds just right and, through some trillion-to-one quirk, Lois gets pregnant.
    I could see it making sense to have both. I imagine that his upbringing on Earth kind of "fools" his sperm into recognizing humans as viable hosts. Pheremone exposure & exchange over decades and a much enhanced command of his physical sense means he wills his body to give life in a form beyond its original genetic capability.

    On your earlier comment, you think Kryptonians generally can leap the tall buildings and such? Without yellow sun? Definitely agree on the sensory superiority.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    n your earlier comment, you think Kryptonians generally can leap the tall buildings and such? Without yellow sun? Definitely agree on the sensory superiority.
    If its canon that Krypton has a much higher gravity than earth does, yes. In the same way that a human can leap great distances on the moon due to lower gravity, Kryptonians should be far stronger on earth.

    If its canon that Krypton has a similar environment as earth, with the same gravity and whatnot, then that changes things. But to my knowledge (and I could easily be missing stuff here) Krypton is either declared a higher-gravity world or nothing is said about the environmental differences between it and earth at all.
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  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    If its canon that Krypton has a much higher gravity than earth does, yes. In the same way that a human can leap great distances on the moon due to lower gravity, Kryptonians should be far stronger on earth.

    If its canon that Krypton has a similar environment as earth, with the same gravity and whatnot, then that changes things. But to my knowledge (and I could easily be missing stuff here) Krypton is either declared a higher-gravity world or nothing is said about the environmental differences between it and earth at all.
    Yeah that's frequently cited. I suppose it becomes just a matter of degree. For me I'd probably want Captain-America levels as the basline.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Yeah that's frequently cited. I suppose it becomes just a matter of degree. For me I'd probably want Captain-America levels as the basline.
    Pretty much, yeah. I think the baseline should be just above human potential. A totally powerless Clark should still be at that "low superhuman" range. Which to him is still going to feel like being blind, deaf, and numb, considering what he's used to.
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  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I'm reading "The Greatest Stories Ever Told". It's interesting that baseline Kryptonians are depicted by Jerry & Joe as leaping vast distances at a baseline. And later in the 60's, red sunlight makes Superman weak enough that Lex can still hurt him with clean punches (though to be fair, it only takes one for Superman to KO him in return). I'm speaking more about power levels than biology here, but I wonder if any stories on Krypton, aside from isolated panels, showed such strong Kryptonians.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Pretty much, yeah. I think the baseline should be just above human potential. A totally powerless Clark should still be at that "low superhuman" range. Which to him is still going to feel like being blind, deaf, and numb, considering what he's used to.
    I think it would higher than captain america. Anyways, in man of steel snyder also attributed his invulnerability to the atmosphere of earth. Clark has all kinds of problems growing up like breathing problems, eyesight problems and hearing problems. It's great. Zack snyder had taken some of golden original influence . Especially, jumping and earth parent's fear of humanity's reaction to clark's powers.gravity should always be part of the reason for his powers, not just sun bathing.
    I would love for Clark's ship and fortress to have environment manipulators for clark to cope when he feels sick on earth. Sort of like goku gravity chamber,but this changes everything about the environment.it's sort of like astronauts have to work out and stuff in space to keep bone density. Also, clark should be huge dude. Since, astronauts grow tall in space and moon during their trip.for superman's species it should be like that. Earth should be their moon.Clark has many powers. So having multiple explanations make sense. Them just dumping gravity, physiology and atmosphere..etc and making it unidimentional was really bad. I would also add muscle, sensory augmentation/control as an abilities that clark developed in order to adapt to earths environment and to keep himself in check(superVentriloquism will be made canon). The other kryptonIans wouldn't be able to match up to clark in that area.

  14. #44
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    @Ascended I agree with you 100%. It has always been my head cannon that a base level Kriptonian has golden age superman powers when there is no yellow sunlight present. I really wish DC would make this their official position as well.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Yeah that's frequently cited. I suppose it becomes just a matter of degree. For me I'd probably want Captain-America levels as the basline.
    It could be fanwanked that whatever means were used to strip away his powers in the past have *also* left him 'weak as a kitten,' by Kryptonian standards, and if they'd gone on for months or years, he would have recovered somewhat to 'normal Kryptonian levels' of un-solar-enhanced slightly superhuman strength and toughness.

    So the 'Krypton's high gravity made him strong' explanation could be squared with the 'red sun makes him only human-strong' circle, by having the stripping of the extra boost from the yellow sun radiation *also* making him temporarily weak and disoriented.

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