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  1. #1186
    Moo-tant? Ultimate Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Heh. Some people are calling posters disagreeing with general consensus "supremacists" or are implying they are somewhat racist as a result...
    I think you missed a few beats to believe this debate is an all-nicer, it's really not.
    Yeah, don't take it to heart, some posters have been out of order.

    You've stood your ground valiantly and I get where you're coming from, some posters have tried to push you to defend things that they've jumped to inaccurate assumptions on what you've been questioning.


    We have to remember that we haven't had many X-folks voices heard in all of this, and Hickman has them all under his pen for now, Mr Sinister incarnate!.

    A poster wrote some weeks ago, which I liked reading was that this a mutant story more than an X-Men story. I get the mutants wanting Krakoa, but the X-Men will want to get out and help humanity soon enough.

    The X-Men will be given some diversity of character and dreams soon, under other writers.

  2. #1187
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    You know what would have been cool? Seeing Unus the Untouchable in one of the books. Maybe even that green taradactal mutant

  3. #1188
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Agreed. Creed is a piece of crap. Nobody would deny that. BUT some of the people judging him are not any better.

    • Shaw eventually became a psycho who abused Emma, and murdered prostitutes for fun.
    • Mystique kills whenever she feels like it & screws people over for kicks, in addition to being a rapist, as her closed thread established.
    • Sinister is Marvel's Orochimaru. Who are we kidding with that?
    • Apocalypse kills anyone he sees as weak by his own standard of Darwinism. And being older than anyone in that room, you know his kill count puts Creed's to shame. lol But he gets to join the X-Men teams.

    Every villain on that council is getting a pass and written by Hickman as some kind of upstanding citizens while Creed is made worse. Again back during his earlier days, he wasn't beyond reasoning & putting things aside for truces. So a better written one would've done well enough on Krakoa for a while. I say the others on that council are long overdo for similar punishment. lol
    No one is denying that they have done horrible things. That’s missing the point of a blank state for the birth of a new mutant safehaven/nation for all mutants. Every single one of them was gifted with the opportunity to join with certain parameters set in place to prevent further animosity between mutants. The entire purpose of this story is to show mutantkind as a whole coming together finally to build something stronger than years and years of constant infighting on top of human persecution. The blank slate is key to any of this happening and leaving the villains out would only serve to keep mutantkind divided, leaving the worst of them out in the world for humans to deal with. Sabretooth wasn’t being judged off of his past crimes. He was being judged for his crimes committed AFTER being offered his place on Krakoa. His slate was no longer blank and he jeopardized the livelihood of the entire mutant race. Human sociopaths/murderers are placed into solitary confinement for decades for less offenses than Sabretooth. Or capital punishment is administered. Pick your poison.His lack of remorse or understanding solidified his punishment. You’ll find no sympathy for an unrepentant, crazed, rapist murdering sociopath here.

  4. #1189
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    Shaw wasn't exactly a gift. They told Emma they wanted Shaw and she made a deal for a 3rd chair that she could pick herself in exchange for letting them have Shaw. Emma definitely doesn't see Shaw as a gift, it was a contract requirement that Xavier and Erik wanted in exchange for her shipping and trade arrangement. Technically they made a reasonable case for why they wanted him so Emma decided to agree but she wanted the ability to pick a council member herself (to counter Shaw). Erik and Xavier agreed to give her the choice of the 3rd Hellfire seat, so the pick is their negotiated agreement with Emma in exchange for asking Emma to bring Shaw back to the Hellfire Club (against her own interests).

    Emma picks Kate Pryde, and she obviously does it because she knows Kate is literally the polar opposite of Sebastian Shaw. It's balance, she has to take the back stabbing asshole back into the organization that she had already successfully kicked him out of. She agrees to do this because she got a really good trade deal out of this along with her own seat on the governing council. But Emma is a skeptical person and she may be all in to a degree. As a skeptic she decides that she needs someone whose opinion she trusts and she chooses Kate. Emma knows that she and Kate will argue, and that's ok, Kate wont' backstab Emma, Kate will tell Emma the truth even if Emma doesn't like it, and that's perfectly fine, because Kate will drive Sebastian nuts at meetings, and that is worth all the gold in the world.
    For letting them have Shaw? If Xavier and Magneto really wanted Shaw they would/could have gotten him, Emma was in no position to stop them. And what if she would have said no, do you really think that Chuck and Mags would have said "oh well we tried and failed cause Emma we can't have him. And if they said no to Emma having a third chair what exactly could she have done about it? She is not the only wealthy mutant around. Let's be real, despite this quiet council and all the gracious overtures, its Xavier, Magneto and I assume Moira hold the true power on Karkoa.

  5. #1190
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    Well I'm sure Creed will be getting some company soon enough with the amount of mass murders on the island
    If they break the law, then they certainly will be joining him. That’s kind of the point of his trial in the first place. To show that.

  6. #1191
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handsome men don't lose fights View Post
    Dude, that statement is bullshit. I'm biracial. I don't need to go live on an Island of biracials in order to be happy and safe. Neither do queer folk or women. Society is gradually changing for the better as it has for centuries. The only reason Xavier's dream hasn't worked out is because failure is a narrative device for generating tension to help with sales. This is a marvel product, you already know you'll never get a definitive ending because of that, don't let frustration lead you to saying irresponsible things.
    Name the last time biracials were continuously persecuted and murdered by non-biracial created robots for decades and I’ll cede to your point.

  7. #1192
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    No one is denying that they have done horrible things. That’s missing the point of a blank state for the birth of a new mutant safehaven/nation for all mutants. Every single one of them was gifted with the opportunity to join with certain parameters set in place to prevent further animosity between mutants. The entire purpose of this story is to show mutantkind as a whole coming together finally to build something stronger than years and years of constant infighting on top of human persecution. The blank slate is key to any of this happening and leaving the villains out would only serve to keep mutantkind divided, leaving the worst of them out in the world for humans to deal with. Sabretooth wasn’t being judged off of his past crimes. He was being judged for his crimes committed AFTER being offered his place on Krakoa. His slate was no longer blank and he jeopardized the livelihood of the entire mutant race. Human sociopaths/murderers are placed into solitary confinement for decades for less offenses than Sabretooth. Or capital punishment is administered. Pick your poison.His lack of remorse or understanding solidified his punishment. You’ll find no sympathy for an unrepentant, crazed, rapist murdering sociopath here.
    Hopefully Mystique will be thrown down there next issue since she was fishy in HOX 3 when Cyclops says not to bring Krakoa flowers and singles out Mystique to ask if she was listening, and she got turned around on the ship and failed to accomplish her mission because she was screwing around in the habitat. Then she can be the other rapist, murdering sociopath we can see get long overdue justice, But long-shot since she's gonna be in X-Men. lol But I keep wondering when she'll get her just due that she never seems to get outside of the 1 time Wolverine killed her. None of these villains have ever gotten what they deserved and they get away with more than Creed does despite being just as bad.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 10-03-2019 at 01:55 PM.

  8. #1193
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    The fact that Xavier says there are no prisons on Krakoa, as if they're above it all, and then casts Sabretooth into what sounds like eternal solitary confinement.....yeah, there's some flaw to all this.

    But he also used the term "exiled" so perhaps the description he gave is not exact?
    I half expect him to turn up upsidedown with Moira and for Xavier to reset him and recruit him into X-Force.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  9. #1194
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    Name the last time biracials were continuously persecuted and murdered by non-biracial created robots for decades and I’ll cede to your point.
    I think the real point in that post, other than this not being relatable to them, is that this doom and gloom future is not some inevitability, it is just the boogeyman that stories have relied on for an easy threat. It was not until Hickman decided that Xavier's dream was not going to work that it became necessary to, in the most convoluted way, try to make it a fact that mutants will always be extinct with a hundred or so years. While that is all fine and dandy for Hickman's story, people have been telling a different story for decades before, one that people were relating to.
    Last edited by cranger; 10-03-2019 at 01:55 PM.

  10. #1195

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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    For letting them have Shaw? If Xavier and Magneto really wanted Shaw they would/could have gotten him, Emma was in no position to stop them. And what if she would have said no, do you really think that Chuck and Mags would have said "oh well we tried and failed cause Emma we can't have him. And if they said no to Emma having a third chair what exactly could she have done about it? She is not the only wealthy mutant around. Let's be real, despite this quiet council and all the gracious overtures, its Xavier, Magneto and I assume Moira hold the true power on Karkoa.
    Oh I get that.

    But Charles and Erik wanted Emma more than they wanted Shaw. Emma has Frost International and the Hellfire Corporation both. Emma was also the person they wanted to be the political and ambassadorial face of Krakoa because of the political and economic connections she had. They asked her to allow Shaw back into the Hellfire Corporation and he would be given a seat on the council. Emma countered that she would bring Shaw back but she wanted a 3rd seat she can pick herself.

    Now, is it possible that Charles, Erik, and Moira already knew Emma would pick Kate Pryde and they anticipated this, yes it's very possible that they anticipated that Kate would be Emma's pick. Emma has used Kate previously to be her "conscience" when Emma feels uncertain about her own leadership or the leadership of those around her. There was a high probability that Emma would choose Kate, so yeah they may have already anticipated this and intended to let her have the 3rd seat pick all along.

    I guess we'll find out whether they are surprised when Emma brings Kate to the next meeting of the Quiet Council.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  11. #1196
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Hopefully Mystique will be thrown down there next issue since she was fishy in HOX 3 when Cyclops says not to bring Krakoa flowers and singles out Mystique to ask if she was listening, and she got turned around on the ship and failed to accomplish her mission because she was screwing around in the habitat. Then she can be the other rapist, murdering sociopath we can see get long overdue justice, But long-shot since she's gonna be in X-Men. lol But I keep wondering when she'll get her just due that she never seems to get outside of the 1 time Wolverine killed her.

    I don’t see Mystique being fishy and not completing her mission to the loss of her own life as the same thing as egregiously endangering a mission critical to the safety of mutantkind to indulge in some casual human/ “meat” murder as the same thing but that’s just my own thoughts, I suppose.

  12. #1197
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    I don’t see Mystique being fishy and not completing her mission to the loss of her own life as the same thing as egregiously endangering a mission critical to the safety of mutantkind to indulge in some casual human/ “meat” murder as the same thing but that’s just my own thoughts, I suppose.
    But we see she did seem to be disobeying direct orders from what was Captain Commander possibly bringing Krakoa flowers with her which Monet explained was dangerous to them and Krakoa and it was fortunate that at least Logan & Kurt wwere able to clean up her mess, which could've cost them just as much as Creed's indiscretion.

    And really going back, the reason they got away the first mission was Creed telling them to go while he let the F4 use him as a punching bag. So using himself as a distraction Thing punching-bag Mystique & Toad made it back with the data they needed, which you can argue was him cleaning up his mess rather than Mystique utterly failing her part of a mission, possibly disobeying orders, then needing 2 other teammates to to die trying to hurry and finish her part of a mission that she failed to accomplish doing her own thing.

  13. #1198
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I think the real point in that post, other than this not being relatable to them, is that this doom and gloom future is not some inevitability, it is just the boogeyman that stories have relied on for an easy threat. It was not until Hickman decided that Xavier's dream was not going to work that it became necessary to, in the most convoluted way, try to make it a fact that mutants will always be extinct with a hundred or so years. While that is all fine and dandy for Hickman's story, people have been telling a different story for decades before, one that people were relating to.

    That’s simply not true though, with all do respect. People in the X-fandom have been tired and fatigued of Xavier’s constant appeal for human equality to no avail for years now. It’s been decades of the same fight with no apparent real progress. How on Earth is it so crazy to try something different and see if that works. Hickman is doing what a lot of people in the fandom have wanted for a long time by finally making a real difference in how the X-men approach their civil and social issues in regards to mutant rights. I understand that not all were tired of the old cycle of stories repeating itself in different ways but a lot of people were fully ready for a change from that old standard that seemed to never yield results. It was just the flip of the coin in that regards and I’m sure at some point in the future it will go back to that. For now this is a wonderful and welcome reprieve for now.

  14. #1199
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I see one big fundamental flaw in the new nation of Krakoa - it is dependent on a small group of people to function, and if any one of them is lost, the whole thing falls apart.

    Those people are Doug Ramsey and the 5 who bring back the dead. Without Doug they can't communicate with Krakoa, which would be very bad since they live on him. And if any 1 of the 5 were to die no one would be able to be resurrected ever.

    I'm assuming Xavier can be replaced and that other telepaths could use Cerebro like he does to complete the resurrection process.

    A society that is so dependent on any individual to function is on shaky ground. This isn't about filling government positions, these are absolutely necessary functions that literally no one else in the world can do.
    I presume they have contingencies for one of the five dying. They could ready spare pods for themselves ready for Xavier to do the final transfer. Any mission critical person could theoretically have similar contingencies. Just as we know the weakest link has a contingency.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  15. #1200
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Is Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence actually viewed as outdated? I'm a little lost here.
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
    -Spider-man

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