Page 81 of 106 FirstFirst ... 317177787980818283848591 ... LastLast
Results 1,201 to 1,215 of 1590
  1. #1201
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    But we see she did seem to be disobeying direct orders from what was Captain Commander possibly bringing Krakoa flowers with her which Monet explained was dangerous to them and Krakoa and it was fortunate that at least Logan & Kurt wwere able to clean up her mess, which could've cost them just as much as Creed's indiscretion.

    And really going back, the reason they got away the first mission was Creed telling them to go while he let the F4 use him as a punching bag. So using himself as a distraction Thing punching-bag Mystique & Toad made it back with the data they needed, which you can argue was him cleaning up his mess rather than Mystique utterly failing her part of a mission, possibly disobeying orders, then needing 2 other teammates to to die trying to hurry and finish her part of a mission that she failed to accomplish doing her own thing.

    I get all of that. And if a future reveal shows her treachery in those regards than I would want her to face justice as well. I just don’t see that being called for in regards to Raven at this point. She’s still acting within the bounds of her blank slate conditions as a citizen of Krakoa.

  2. #1202
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    4,803

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Is Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence actually viewed as outdated? I'm a little lost here.
    It does seem to be that Xavier's dream was just that. A nice dream. But given all the futures that ended with the destruction of mutants, they now decide to live to themselves peacefully. Case of they don't bother humans. They don't want humans to bother them. But they may still serve as being heroes and helping with threats, but will not chose to live among those they protect & help.

    Seems I remember JDW, Hickman, or maybe one of the characters in HOX say that Xavier's dream simply was never meant to be.

  3. #1203
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Some bag...
    Posts
    2,456

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Is Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence actually viewed as outdated? I'm a little lost here.
    It's not the dream itself just how he went about achieving it.

  4. #1204
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Is Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence actually viewed as outdated? I'm a little lost here.

    I would not say it is outdated in its general sense but I think the tactics used to achieve “actually peaceful” coexistence have been re-evaluated after years of no success. Living on the same planet in relative peace is a far better way to coexist than living fully integrated with constant war, strife, and death. Cyclops came to as much of a conclusion himself when he was in his renegade leader mode. Same end point, just a less passive road to get there.

  5. #1205
    Mighty Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,009

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I think the real point in that post, other than this not being relatable to them, is that this doom and gloom future is not some inevitability, it is just the boogeyman that stories have relied on for an easy threat. It was not until Hickman decided that Xavier's dream was not going to work that it became necessary to, in the most convoluted way, try to make it a fact that mutants will always be extinct with a hundred or so years. While that is all fine and dandy for Hickman's story, people have been telling a different story for decades before, one that people were relating to.
    I would love a Mutant narrative that showed progress and nuance, but that hasn't happened for a sustained period for a long time. And so at this point, this makes sense to me as an outcome and a way forward. No minority has been handed respect and equality. None have won by sitting on their hands and waiting. In the Marvel universe, the fight is Krakoa because irrespective of Hickman, Xavier's dream has been an abject failure and a rudderless and nonsensical strategy for a very long time. Being the equivalent of humanity's Alpha Primitives as their super-powered defenders who hope for change hasn't accomplished anything. And from a fan perspective, it's no surprise to me that the most successful X-books recently have been about an Extinction Team and a Revolution.

  6. #1206
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    4,771

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ororo101 View Post
    I would not say it is outdated in its general sense but I think the tactics used to achieve “actually peaceful” coexistence have been re-evaluated after years of no success. Living on the same planet in relative peace is a far better way to coexist than living fully integrated with constant war, strife, and death. Cyclops came to as much of a conclusion himself when he was in his renegade leader mode. Same end point, just a less passive road to get there.
    Yes, and during that time Marvel bent over backwards to say he was evil and horrible and wrong for "abandoning Charles's dream". Now all of a sudden everyone in on board for a far more extreme version?

  7. #1207
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by useridgoeshere View Post
    I would love a Mutant narrative that showed progress and nuance, but that hasn't happened for a sustained period for a long time. And so at this point, this makes sense to me as an outcome and a way forward. No minority has been handed respect and equality. None have won by sitting on their hands and waiting. In the Marvel universe, the fight is Krakoa because irrespective of Hickman, Xavier's dream has been an abject failure and a rudderless and nonsensical strategy for a very long time. Being the equivalent of humanity's Alpha Primitives as their super-powered defenders who hope for change hasn't accomplished anything. And from a fan perspective, it's no surprise to me that the most successful X-books recently have been about an Extinction Team and a Revolution.
    This was said much better than I did, but these are my exact thoughts as well. As I said before, the definition of insanity is trying the same method over and over again to achieve a desired result.

  8. #1208
    Moo-tant? Ultimate Rogue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    676

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Is Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence actually viewed as outdated? I'm a little lost here.
    We still don't know if Xaviers gone a bit bonkers and what the dream is anymore,

    so it's a feeding frenzy here now

  9. #1209
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Bedford UK
    Posts
    10,346

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    It is totalitarianism.

    That's just not an uncommon thing at the founding of a nation.
    Very much so. Plus in the developed nations we are terribly judgemental when it comes to the corruption of developing nations. we conveniently forget each of our nations were run by thugs or despots at various times, and that sometimes those are necessary stages.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  10. #1210
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,798

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Is Xavier's dream of peaceful coexistence actually viewed as outdated? I'm a little lost here.
    I don't think so. This whole story seems to stem from Moira telling Xavier "It's not a dream if it's true." So it seems that this is the path toward eventual coexistence.

    I can understand how the mutant population founding a separate nation could be seen as a bit isolationist....it is, in a general way, or separatist at the very least....but perhaps this is the leveling of the playing field that was necessary in order to actually achieve equality.

    And equality seems to be the foundation of peaceful coexistence.

  11. #1211
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Yes, and during that time Marvel bent over backwards to say he was evil and horrible and wrong for "abandoning Charles's dream". Now all of a sudden everyone in on board for a far more extreme version?

    No. We just think Xavier’s new vision is clearly far more thought out, planned, practical, and guaranteed for success than Cyke’s was. There is more support, more unity, more power, more resources, and more strategy dedicated to making this attempt a lasting venture into mutant freedom. His trade of goods with humanity that offer them a strong incentive to cooperate already make this the best idea the X-men have had in ages to achieve their goal. I’ll speak for myself of course, though this is what I’ve grasped from others as well.
    Last edited by Ororo101; 10-03-2019 at 02:23 PM.

  12. #1212
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    4,803

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Rogue View Post
    We still don't know if Xaviers gone a bit bonkers and what the dream is anymore,

    so it's a feeding frenzy here now
    His face has stayed hidden for a while. He may have a Sinister diamond on him somewhere. lol

    I don't agree with wild theories like him being Maker, Moira or Nova. lol But I do think last issue may reveal something is not right.

    Of course, given the it's last issue and so many things to resolve, Idk if this will be the case. Maybe Xavier is normal and uncorrupted. And the last issue will be about Apocalypse x Moira.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 10-03-2019 at 02:24 PM.

  13. #1213

    Default

    This story would work a whole lot better if there was more dissension/misgivings about the new status quo. This new stance is extreme, and while I could possibly still see everyone getting behind it despite some doubts, I still feel everyone is just too comfortable with what's going on. It was accepted too easily, which wasn't helped by not showing the lead up to how everyone arrived at such a consensus. We need more conversations of people being conflicted about things for this to feel natural ala Schism etc. Same with the Quiet Council. Does no one have a problem with Sinister, Mystique, Shaw etc sitting on a council deciding laws?! How did that come about? Besides a throwaway line from Xavier, no one else seems perturbed by this. This stuff needs to be addressed in the satellite books.

  14. #1214
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    3,728

    Default

    And what if Hickman's plan to save the franchise after decades of caricatural and boring stories - interesting maybe to many fans but, let's be honest, not to the many new readers buying his books today (It's definitively a book made to bring new readers and not only pleased to old fans of this forum)- was to push to the max the consequences of those old tropes and bring something new and interesting because it explores all the grey areas of the mutant concept.

    Reading well the two series and his other works it seems quite obvious.

    I'm not that sure that the quality of the debates in this forum always reflects the complexity of his writing...

    (Maybe Xavier's face when revealed will surprise many here... or not.. I don't know. And maybe the theme of the machine is downplayed by many here while it seems to be something that really deeply interest the gifted writer we're all reading. We should probably talk more and think more about it...)
    Last edited by Abe; 10-03-2019 at 02:26 PM.
    - To Tammy and the Blue Rose !

  15. #1215
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturius View Post
    This story would work a whole lot better if there was more dissension/misgivings about the new status quo. This new stance is extreme, and while I could possibly still see everyone getting behind it despite some doubts, I still feel everyone is just too comfortable with what's going on. It was accepted too easily, which wasn't helped by not showing the lead up to how everyone arrived at such a consensus. We need more conversations of people being conflicted about things for this to feel natural ala Schism etc. Same with the Quiet Council. Does no one have a problem with Sinister, Mystique, Shaw etc sitting on a council deciding laws?! How did that come about? Besides a throwaway line from Xavier, no one else seems perturbed by this. This stuff needs to be addressed in the satellite books.
    I agree and I can’t see a way that those dissenting views won’t come in time. Hickman said this was supposed to set up stories for years to come. Conflicting points of view are bound to be the meat of those stories going forward.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •