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  1. #1276
    Mighty Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
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    So, are we to think that Krakoa was lawless until the council met? And that only three things can earn you a punishment? There are certain things that can be assumed as crimes in any society. He can't even use a George Costanza defense ("Oh, was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing."). He knew it was wrong. Magneto, one of the big bosses and a dude no one should cross, even told him not to kill anyone. He did it anyway. If he'd been convicted for wearing orange on Wednesday or something random, I'd think that was unfair, but come on.

  2. #1277
    Emma Been Frost Perfection/Emma 2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    What was the better solution? Banish him and he finds someone to kill or his way back? Build Prisons on Krakoa? The turn resurrections into something people can abuse by deciding who comes back? If you think there is an answer that doesn't lead to something messed up you are fooling yourself. Creed Punishment was actually the lesser of evils

    Creed commited a crime they took him out of human custody who was going to punish him. Mutants said they aren't trusting humans to give proper judgment. It does mean mutants breaking human laws will go unpunished.The government was formed and they put in laws and Sabertooth was punished
    Exactly! They could had left that ass for the Avengers, S.H.I.E.L.D., or someone else to deal with. Creed is a damn murdererer (reversion not withstanding) and got his deserved punishment. Had his ass shown humility and asked Mama & The Council for one more chance to prove himself. Which would had been wasted anyways considering it's Creed. Maybe just maybe things would had ended differently. Imagine thinking a monster like Sabertooth is deserving of fairness. I want to see the fairness he displayed to the folks he needlessly mutilated. Magneto gave him an order and his fucked it up. Dude got what was coming to him
    Emma Frost & Aero fan

  3. #1278
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by useridgoeshere View Post
    So, are we to think that Krakoa was lawless until the council met? And that only three things can earn you a punishment? There are certain things that can be assumed as crimes in any society. He can't even use a George Costanza defense ("Oh, was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing."). He knew it was wrong. Magneto, one of the big bosses and a dude no one should cross, even told him not to kill anyone. He did it anyway. If he'd been convicted for wearing orange on Wednesday or something random, I'd think that was unfair, but come on.
    Comic books fans have been condition to think that if a book doesn't explicitly lay something out, it doesn't count.

  4. #1279
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    "Is what we have perfect? No.What is?
    But it's a start--and a good one"
    To me, this clearly summarises everything HiX-Man is trying to do and say with this story.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 10-03-2019 at 06:35 PM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  5. #1280
    Fantastic Member Stormultt Divine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    "Is what we have perfect? No.What is?
    But it's a start--and a good one"
    To me, this early summarises everything HiX-Man is trying to do and say with this story.
    bingo bingo bingo.

  6. #1281
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    LOL they should never let Wanda Maximoff within a hundred miles of them again.
    Or take him to her then. lol

    The Sabretooth/Mystique/etc. X-Factor run with Steve Epting art was very flawed but genuinely interesting. I think an X-Force ancillary-type book with Creed chipped or otherwise mentally conditioned again could be interesting, but for now I don't blame them at all for burying him deep in the earth. Next up should be Selene and eventually, Sinister.
    I thought it was an ok run. I preferred it to PAD's rendition. The art was something that would really go up & down a lot thought.

    As for Raven - when she cut Moira down like a dog in 2001, that was it for me. I wanted her dead. I was over all the justifications for her long lifetime in service of antihero goals re: mutant freedom. They should've hunted her down and killed her. That went double after the Marauders trap in Carey's run. But Mystique is still a fascinating, complex character who always has her own reasons. I happen to still find most of her reasons to be psychotic bullshit, but she's compelling nonetheless. And as she hasn't actually killed Moira after all, I am happy to see her continue and evolve. If she can't find a more stable and functional place in the new Krakoan order, the maw can always await her too.
    In all seriousness I am indifferent to Mystique if she's not paired with Creed and him demoted to her henchman. The Creed I like is a cunning, trollish, effective solo villain. When he's written as a dumb savage henchman, I lose interest. I like villains like who are like Dexter, Tai Lung (King Fu Panda), Pinhead (Hellraiser) the composed reasonable version. But I am never a fan of the stupid or comedy villains.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 10-03-2019 at 06:34 PM.

  7. #1282
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    It does seem to be that Xavier's dream was just that. A nice dream. But given all the futures that ended with the destruction of mutants, they now decide to live to themselves peacefully. Case of they don't bother humans. They don't want humans to bother them. But they may still serve as being heroes and helping with threats, but will not chose to live among those they protect & help.

    Seems I remember JDW, Hickman, or maybe one of the characters in HOX say that Xavier's dream simply was never meant to be.
    I'm not sure if that's the best way of gauging how much a dream is and isn't worth going after when the writers can get sadistic to the point of not allowing even the smallest amount of progress.

    I mean, Prof. X is inspired by Martin Luther King, right? Well if Martin Luther King was a fictional character whose life and impactful progress he could have on the world was dictated by the modern X-Men writers, then would his life be exactly the same as that of the real Martin Luther King?
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 10-03-2019 at 06:36 PM.

  8. #1283
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Exactly this. Creed is a psychotic monster. That doesn't mean any fair and just civilization gets to take all his rights away and torture him until the end of time. That's absolutely barbaric, and the fact that Jean or Kurt was okay with that shows how massively OOC they are right now.
    Creed I can see majority not caring, so most people will think it is fair

    I think the point will be when someone that readers care get the same treatment

  9. #1284
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handsome men don't lose fights View Post
    What you're skipping over is that Sabertooth committed no crime because the law that was invoked to justify punishing him did not exist until they created it at his show-trial. That's not how laws work. You can go on and on about what murderous scum Creed is, and that's fine, but morality should have no place in the application of a just law. What's fair for one is fair for all. What happened to Creed was totalitarianism, plain and simple. If you're one of those people who think criminals should have no rights, then I'm sure the prison industrial complex owes you a lunch voucher for the Texas roadhouse.
    Yeah no I’m sorry but the suggestion that the law to “not kill humans” was just made “to justify punishing” Creed is fundamentally incorrect. That law is foundational to the security and protection of Krakoa’s international sovereignty. It would have been made with or without Creed’s actions because in order to be left in peace you cannot cause harm to those who agree to your terms of sovereignty without expecting retaliation which is exactly what the ruling council of a foundling nation should be enforcing. Creed was punished because as a citizen of that nation-state and acting under the orders of a state official, he DIRECTLY disobeyed his EXPLICIT orders in a matter of national security with grave possible repercussions for the entirety of his race. When he agreed to accept Krakoan citizenship his blank slate was given on the terms that he not violate the rules and conditions set by those Krakoan officials who offered him the chance. Just like all of the rest of the villains who came through the gates. Going by your logic Apocalypse could have gone on a Krakoan murder spree the day after he agreed to abide by the laws of the land but because there were no official “laws” yet, nobody would be justified to hold him accountable. That would literally be the most asinine assumption to make and would completely invalidate the verbal agreement said upon entry to Krakoa. In the process of founding a nation, when laws are in the process of creation, anarchy is not the law of the land. The semantics being used to demonize a completely justifiable decision are getting out of hand now.
    Last edited by Ororo101; 10-03-2019 at 06:46 PM.

  10. #1285
    Mighty Member CGAR's Avatar
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    you guys really go through cycles in the debate/arguments/disgreement...

    just woosahhhhhhhh

    and shut up already both Jean and Emma are bad ass

  11. #1286
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    Comic books fans have been condition to think that if a book doesn't explicitly lay something out, it doesn't count.
    I get arguing that they are going to do whatever they want to do because they have all the power, but the book did actually explicitly lay out that these were the first three laws. That means there were no laws. When he was punished he was punished for murdering a human, not for any other law that we are supposed to believe existed. It was very clear that Sabretooth was made an example of in order to show they were serious about these new laws, not some other unspoken stuff.

  12. #1287
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    you guys really go through cycles in the debate/arguments/disgreement...

    just woosahhhhhhhh

    and shut up already both Jean and Emma are bad ass
    Boredom can make you do funny things.

  13. #1288
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    What was the better solution? Banish him and he finds someone to kill or his way back? Build Prisons on Krakoa? The turn resurrections into something people can abuse by deciding who comes back? If you think there is an answer that doesn't lead to something messed up you are fooling yourself. Creed Punishment was actually the lesser of evils

    Creed commited a crime they took him out of human custody who was going to punish him. Mutants said they aren't trusting humans to give proper judgment. It does mean mutants breaking human laws will go unpunished.The government was formed and they put in laws and Sabertooth was punished
    Exactly this as well. What other possible alternative is everyone that is having a moral conundrum about Creed’s sentencing offering instead? I’m not the type to jump to capital punishment lightly for even the worst criminals, if there is a chance for redemption which is what prison is supposed to offer, then I will always choose that alternative. Redemption requires acceptance of one’s wrong-doing. Redemption requires the possibility of change. Redemption requires the fundamental understanding that you should never attempt to commit your crimes again. Creed will never, ever, EVER not be a savage, bloodthirsty brute with a thirst for pain and violence. If that’s not understood by now I don’t know what to tell you. As cruel as this may sound to some Creed is a particular case where I would summarily support his execution. No backups allowed. That’s my own opinion however which I’m not intending to pass as an objective truth. Perhaps to some of you though, that would be a kinder punishment. Unfortunately it’s not up to us, the readers, to decide.

  14. #1289

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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I'm not sure if that's the best way of gauging how much a dream is and isn't worth going after when the writers can get sadistic to the point of not allowing even the smallest amount of progress.

    I mean, Prof. X is inspired by Martin Luther King, right? Well if Martin Luther King was a fictional character whose life and impactful progress he could have on the world was dictated by the modern X-Men writers, then would his life be exactly the same as that of the real Martin Luther King?
    The problem is that mutants were treated as a genetic deviance to be purged by the human race. I realize that humans were scared, but in their fear they resorted to the worst extremes, they went even further than the Nazi's did against the Jewish, Gypsies, and Gay people. They hunted mutants world wide and they tried to find final solutions to mutants that could purge the entire race from existence. They take mutant children with psi talents and turn them into mutant hunting hounds by torturing and brainwashing said children until they have no identity left. They take mutants who have any sort of healing factor and turn them into Weapons and they try to purge said mutants of any conscience or morality so they can use them as killing weapons that are completely controlled by the state.

    Humans have committed atrocities against mutants that are so horrible that it's beyond any kind of forgiveness. How do you forgive a race that has hunted you relentlessly seeking your extermination and extinction as a race. The X-Men save humanity multiple times and the humans protest in front of their home demanding that the X-Men be rounded up and put in concentration camps and gassed. People cheer for those who hurt or harm mutants.

    They were happy that Genosha was eliminated, a country of 16 million mutants was a threat to human peace of mind, they were happy those dirty mutants were killed.

    I am sorry, but Xavier's dream is dead because humanity doesn't want any part of his dream. In part it does come down to the fact that mutants are an evolutionary step on the path of humanity. The humans of science realize that mutants are their brothers and sisters, but it still scares them that these mutants have powers. Politicians fear the mutants who have telepathy because they can see through their corruption and evil. The common people fear mutants because they fear their strange powers, but also because the science, religions, and political leaders tell them to fear and hate mutants as the ultimate threat to the ascendancy of human life.

    Then you have the humans that actually enjoy inflicting horror upon mutants. Rory Campbell (Ahab) loved turning Rachel into a hound, he loved that he could parade this mongrel mutant in front of other humans to show them he can turn a mutant into nothing more than a hunting dog. It gave him sadistic pleasure to do that to a mutant child, and he loved turning mutants into hounds. The other part of this is that Ahab didn't want for followers, his time ship was fully staffed with humans from the 616 universe who believed as he did. When he was stranded in the 616 after Rachel and Kate changed the Sentinel program in the 811, Ahab had no trouble finding human followers who believed as he did.

    I am not sure what to tell people, I get that what is happening on Krakoa is somewhat suspicious and some of those villains are definitely going to be a problem later. In the end Xavier, Erik, and Moira are trying something different, unify all mutants in common cause to defend and protect each other from human oppression. Heck, Magneto even voted with Jean that humans should not be murdered outside of an actual war.

    Krakoa is creating a protected state where mutants can be safe from all this human oppression that has been inflicted upon them for years. What was the reaction of some humans in finding out that mutants had created a defensible state, they created a program to commit a new genocide on the mutants to unleash the Mother Mold, Sentinels, and Nimrod upon the mutants without any remorse.

    Krakoa has agreed to be a member nation of the United Nations, they have agreed to United Nations standard agreements because you can't be a member nation unless you agree to those things under the United Nations Charter. Krakoa has signed peace treaties and trade agreements with multiple nations across they entire planet Earth. They are not making any moves to attack any nations. The Amnesty is temporary to allow countries to send mutants to Krakoa. I guarentee a lot of countries will welcome the chance to get rid of some of the criminal mutants that are costing their justice systems money because mutant incarceration is so expensive. I bet a lot of countries jumped at the chance to extradite all their mutants to Krakoa and still get the medicines in trade.

    There are restrictions on travel to Krakoa for non-mutants and this is no different than a lot of countries that have strict visitor visa agreements as part of their treaties. This isn't just about the mutants themselves but the sentient island of Krakoa that wants to feel safe from human attack. It trusts that the mutants will live symbiotically with it, but it does not trust normal humans to do the same. Some humans will get approval to travel to Krakoa based on a strict selection process, but some humans will be allowed to go to the island and won't be restricted to just the embassies.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  15. #1290
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Is there a limit to how far a group can take action based on reasoning of self-defense though?
    I’m afraid I do not understand your question which I would like to answer since it addressed to me. Might I ask you to re-phrase?

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