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  1. #1426
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punch Dimension. View Post
    Can you elaborate on how my comments dismantled the notion of empathy?
    I am very wary of claims that only certain people in certain circumstances can fully identify with genre fiction, an inherently empathy supporting medium.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  2. #1427
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I am very wary of claims that only certain people in certain circumstances can fully identify with genre fiction, an inherently empathy supporting medium.
    Ok, but i wasn't talk about identifying what fiction genres, i was talking about those who are able to identify with specefic metaphors more than others, particularly minority metaphors. Is this what you have an issue with?

  3. #1428
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I was trying to make a point about what you said not you:



    To claim there is no story here is to define story in a very narrow way. I would see your definition being confined purely to methods like those espoused by Lajos Egri to the exclusion of all other types of storytelling. Not even Egri would claim that.
    I get that, but I defined it in that very narrow way in the context of why this 'win' did not feel 'earned'. That this comic book series did not tell that 'story' properly if at all. I also keep putting 'story' in quotes because I know I am referring to the conventional structure and not because I am trying to exclude other methods.

    Still, the point really is that even if I did all that, that is my choice. If you disagree, then explain why you think Hickman managed to make this feel like a win, and how those elements of story are present but he has woven them throughout in different methods.

  4. #1429
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punch Dimension. View Post
    Ok, but i wasn't talk about identifying what fiction genres, i was talking about those who are able to identify with specefic metaphors more than others, particularly minority metaphors. Is this what you have an issue with?
    There is no such thing as a mutant as defined in the X-Books. They are a conceit designed to allow any reader to identify with their plight through analogy and metaphor. There is no single metaphor within the pages of the corpus of X-Books. Every one of us as individuals has a certain amount of privilege and corresponding lack of it, and as such we are all capable of both empathising with this kind of fiction as well as seeing the issues from more than one side or perspective. I am not making this as a dogmatic claim about race, creed, sexuality or any minority. In the case of your point about a blanket statement holding true I don’t see any logic to it that holds up to this perspective on X-Books.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  5. #1430
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I get that, but I defined it in that very narrow way in the context of why this 'win' did not feel 'earned'. That this comic book series did not tell that 'story' properly if at all. I also keep putting 'story' in quotes because I know I am referring to the conventional structure and not because I am trying to exclude other methods.
    Yes I acknowledge your quotes, but you were one of many making this point and it is a point that is inherently limited. This thread has seen people pull out their English Language credentials as a badge, to somehow discount Hickman’s chosen style of storytelling. That is a perspective that I believe needs challenging. The conventions of storytelling are far from universal and rigid.

    Still, the point really is that even if I did all that, that is my choice. If you disagree, then explain why you think Hickman managed to make this feel like a win, and how those elements of story are present but he has woven them throughout in different methods.
    Even by this question you are placing limits on the way one can critique the story. From my perspective this isn’t a story about a ‘win’ this is a story about how a very specific nation has been forged and the forces that came together to form it. It is a story about things that happened not a story about how people felt or how those feelings came into conflict. Those things will inevitably be covered in different stories.

    To critique a plot driven story as if it was a character driven story is to use the wrong method to analyse it.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  6. #1431
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    There is no such thing as a mutant as defined in the X-Books. They are a conceit designed to allow any reader to identify with their plight through analogy and metaphor. There is no single metaphor within the pages of the corpus of X-Books. Every one of us as individuals has a certain amount of privilege and corresponding lack of it, and as such we are all capable of both empathising with this kind of fiction as well as seeing the issues from more than one side or perspective. I am not making this as a dogmatic claim about race, creed, sexuality or any minority. In the case of your point about a blanket statement holding true I don’t see any logic to it that holds up to this perspective on X-Books.
    So what you're sayong is that the mutant metaphor isn't a minority metaphor and actually a metaphor for any person with a specefic plight? I.e when Remender said he identified with the X-Men because he was a skateboarder who got picked on back in the 90s?

  7. #1432
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    From my perspective this isn’t a story about a ‘win’
    This 'win' was the topic, and what my criticism was about. That is it. Maybe you can go back and see the thread of the discussion to understand that my narrow look at the story was because I was talking about a narrow element of it that someone else claimed was significant. I was not addressing any other elements, themes, interpretations of the story. Just the 'win'.

  8. #1433
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punch Dimension. View Post
    So what you're sayong is that the mutant metaphor isn't a minority metaphor and actually a metaphor for any person with a specefic plight? I.e when Remender said he identified with the X-Men because he was a skateboarder who got picked on back in the 90s?
    It was written by a white dude and made the highest selling franchise by white dudes buying it. Sad, but true.

    And, yes, as a teen I certainly, of all the superheroes, felt drawn to the X-Men side of things because it felt familiar.

  9. #1434
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    It is not about fairness. It is about making sure they don't end up having the rest of the world turn against them. Again. Closing off Krakoa just gives people a reason. It makes it hard to trade when something is withheld off that bat.
    What? How in world does closing off your borders from people hate you already make things worse? Krakoa isn't a promise land it is a refuge camp.

    What kinda aholes thinks they deserve access to very thing they caused to happen by being aholes? The argument reeks of privilege of having everything and being deny of one thing and not having access is problem.It is mindblowing.

  10. #1435
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punch Dimension. View Post
    So what you're sayong is that the mutant metaphor isn't a minority metaphor and actually a metaphor for any person with a specefic plight? I.e when Remender said he identified with the X-Men because he was a skateboarder who got picked in back in the 90s?
    I am not sure if I am or not to be honest. That isn’t how I would express it though. It certainly feels like a metaphor for the less privileged. Quite how a picked-on skateboarder fits that is up for debate, but skateboarding is partly an outsider culture. That may be a route into the stories, but that isn’t why they exist.

    Many of us are drawn to mutants because they represent those parts of us that are not accepted by others. Then, through the wider metaphor we are encouraged to see that in the broad context of relative privilege. Different X-Books play to different aspects of this, and examine them from different angles. They challenge us all. The best of the stories make us question these issues on a much more fundamental level than our own personal privileges or lack there of. And the best are not designed to play to a specific group.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  11. #1436
    Incredible Member Ororo101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    It is not about fairness. It is about making sure they don't end up having the rest of the world turn against them. Again. Closing off Krakoa just gives people a reason. It makes it hard to trade when something is withheld off that bat.
    But if the only thing being withheld is direct and personal access to 316 square miles of remote island territory out of all of the land on Earth then why is that a reason to loose good faith when the “goods” promised are still being traded as agreed?
    Last edited by Ororo101; 10-04-2019 at 07:27 AM.

  12. #1437
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    What? How in world does closing off your borders from people hate you already make things worse? Krakoa isn't a promise land it is a refuge camp.

    What kinda aholes thinks they deserve access to very thing they caused to happen by being aholes? The argument reeks of privilege of having everything and being deny of one thing and not having access is problem.It is mindblowing.
    You keep calling them aholes and talking bad about them, do you think they are going to stop being aholes because the mutants tell them they can't go to Krakoa, or do you think they will act like bigger aholes?

  13. #1438
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    As of now, Jean lobotomized her with empathy.
    Got her with Care Bear Stare.

  14. #1439
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    This 'win' was the topic, and what my criticism was about. That is it. Maybe you can go back and see the thread of the discussion to understand that my narrow look at the story was because I was talking about a narrow element of it that someone else claimed was significant. I was not addressing any other elements, themes, interpretations of the story. Just the 'win'.
    I was going through the tread point by point, so I have a perspective on where it came from, but I grant you I may have misunderstood your specific point if you are not personally attached to the idea of this book being about a ‘win’.

    Perhaps to clarify, do you personally think this story is supposed to be about a win? Or were you suggesting it wasn’t?

    From my perspective it certainly isn’t.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  15. #1440
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    You keep calling them aholes and talking bad about them, do you think they are going to stop being aholes because the mutants tell them they can't go to Krakoa, or do you think they will act like bigger aholes?
    I think the point is they are no longer catering to humans and care if they continue to be aholes. Bigoted aholes aren't the center of the universe, let them hate there is no reason to want to be accepted by them anyway.

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