HOUSE OF x [06] : I AM NOT ASHAMED [SPOILERS]

[Shreene]

Did Colt build those weapons with the intention of murdering an entire race?

Absolutely, you don't really think they built them for hunting deer do you?

Gun Control

[JKtheMac]

Whoa, people really spent 20 pages defending Rapetooth.

You must be reading another thread. People were defending the concept of justice.

[JKtheMac]

I only explained why it has not worked for me. Heaven forbid someone criticize a book or writer you like.

You turned a supposed objective argument against it. Suggesting that it doesn’t qualify. And you did that by applying a rule that would disqualify a huge percentage of stories. That is taking things beyond personal opinion. I felt it necessary to point out that you were not being objective, so claiming subjectivity after the fact is not a good defence.

[JKtheMac]

That’s all valid.

I think it just comes down to there not really being any easy choice here.

I think that they had to take Creed from the human court in order to maintain the amnesty, but once they had him they had to decide what to do with him.

And I don’t think that you can pass such judgment and do all the other things that founding a nation requires and still come out of it all with your hands clean.

They’re kind of beyond personal morality here.

Indeed that is the situation in a nutshell. All the talk of what he did is not the point. They were applying their principals too rigorously by bringing him home. Justice would have been served leaving him where he was. They created a judicial problem that had no easy answers by their actions, then were forced to create retroactive legislation. That is never a good idea, but we have seen our own governments create retroactive laws under circumstances they would claim were necessary.

As an example of how justice can be tangled and thorny this is a relatively simple case. Most of us would not wish for Creed to be allowed to walk free. But importantly, not specifically because he killed some guards while conducting a black-ops mission he was probably ill suited for. That mission was already illegal.

[ComeOnBunny]

Justice and Morality are just words. Justice has killed more people than crime has because people that believe they are right are capable of commiting the worst of atrocities with a clear conscience all while boasting about their moral superiority. When I decide to do something I do not consider if it is right or wrong I only consider how it will affect what is most important to me. I think Xavier in House of X has awoken to this as well.

[loke13]

Despite my frustrations with certain posters this has been the most electrically charged this board has been!! Hopefully Hickman's X-Men can keep up this level of debate lol I can't even guess what the next major event is going to be about? Something to do with the Shiar? The First Horseman? A SCHISM?????

[JKtheMac]

The law didn't exist. We all saw them make it up. Then we all saw them retroactively apply it. Retroactive application is one of the two problems, not the existence of the law itself. You can't make up a rule on Tuesday to punish people for what they did on Monday. If Western courts could do what the Krokoans just did, this world would be a hellscape.

I agree wholeheartedly, but retroactive legislation is unfortunately something’s we have seen in our lifetimes. Usually aimed at whomsoever a government deems to be reprehensible in some way. It’s a bad principle to apply but it does get applied every so often.

The second problem is that the punishment is inhumanely cruel. Leaving someone awake and aware in the dark (but immobile), is torture. Further reading.

I had similar concerns at the end of Aaron’s Thor, where the villains were confined and apparently immobile in the roots of Yggdrasil. That could be excused as fable, but this couldn’t be. When you compare Krakoa to the hand-wringing that Wakanda recently went through there is no comparison. Krakoan justice has been found wanting.

Lastly, Creed is mentally ill. He can't control his impulse to kill. As a former patient of his, Xavier should understand this about the man better than anyone else. Creed also suffers from adult oppositional defiance disorder, meaning he literally cannot be told what to do. So, why are "state officials" utilizing the services of the mentally ill, and then punishing them for being hampered by mental illness? It's a joke, you just don't want to believe that your favorites can make mistakes. Or that Xavier and Magneto are controlling them.

Pretty sure none of this was a mistake. Magneto is not known for his transparency or his sense of fairness.

Justice and Morality are just words. Justice has killed more people than crime has because people that believe they are right are capable of commiting the worst of atrocities with a clear conscience all while boasting about their moral superiority. When I decide to do something I do not consider if it is right or wrong I only consider how it will affect what is most important to me. I think Xavier in House of X has awoken to this as well.

They are just words, but they are codified ways to live together, and as such they define our culture and how we interact. Therefore they are fundamentally important even as they are artificial constructs.

[JKtheMac]

Kind of wondering what Death (the entity of course) feels about that to be honest.

Excellent question. Give this guy a job Marvel.

[ComeOnBunny]

I agree wholeheartedly, but retroactive legislation is unfortunately something’s we have seen in our lifetimes. Usually aimed at whomsoever a government deems to be reprehensible in some way. It’s a bad principle to apply but it does get applied every so often.

I had similar concerns at the end of Aaron’s Thor, where the villains were confined and apparently immobile in the roots of Yggdrasil. That could be excused as fable, but this couldn’t be. When you compare Krakoa to the hand-wringing that Wakanda recently went through there is no comparison. Krakoan justice has been found wanting.



Pretty sure none of this was a mistake. Magneto is not known for his transparency or his sense of fairness.



They are just words, but they are codified ways to live together, and as such they define our culture and how we interact. Therefore they are fundamentally important even as they are artificial constructs.

I think it is nothing but peer pressure and brainwashing.

[Tycon]

So do we blame the manufacturer for all of the crimes of murder committed with a Bushmaster QRC AR-15 Semi Auto Rifle?

No but I think it’s reasonable to blame the guy who created a death machine specifically coded to kill one subset of a population because he and his family are all violently bigoted. Machines encoded with explicit, destructive biases are not the same as guns. Racial violence with guns has later mutated into slave patrol enforcing black people which we still see with systemic racial violence in the police force towards minorities but especially black people. And that’s something that is acknowledged by at least a good number of people (see: BLM).

[JKtheMac]

I think it is nothing but peer pressure and brainwashing.

Can I clarify. You think justice is peer pressure and brainwashing?

Here is the lowdown. The way we codify our societies is somewhat arbitrary and based on context and circumstances from history. Abstract concepts are not tangibly real in an objective sense. A functional society is built upon principles that we all agree on and we can’t afford to have the entire debate from the ground up every time somebody does something that causes a problem.

So yes justice is just a concept agreed upon by a long and ongoing process, but that doesn’t make it brainwashing. Justice may be blind but it is transparent. Anyone with the will to do so and a basic grasp of law is free to challenge it and decisions are made openly with maximum scrutiny.

Krakoa hasn’t reached that level of sophistication. Most nations don’t start from scratch. They start with an existing set of laws that they agree with and adapt them to their own purpose. Clearly mutants feel that existing human laws are not a good place to start. They have a very rocky road ahead of them if they don’t even start with Plato.

[Killerbee911]

I agree wholeheartedly, but retroactive legislation is unfortunately something’s we have seen in our lifetimes. Usually aimed at whomsoever a government deems to be reprehensible in some way. It’s a bad principle to apply but it does get applied every so often.

.

But it is not retroactive legislation he wasn't sentenced yet he was awaiting trial. Krakoa had a provisional government, They could have punished him right away but they waited until they had the official government in place. Creed committed a crime,He was going to be punished whether it was by the human government, provisional government or official krakoa government. This isn't some sort of crazy process rules change all time, I am pretty sure they are people sitting in jail on weed charges in states where weed is legal now. I am sure there is even a couple of case where a person got arrest for weed but between the period time waiting for the rules changed.

Creed committed a crime. It is not some retroactive thing they took him out of another government custody who was going to deliver justice. I know it is not all the same fans but you guys can't complain about everything

-People complained that Creed wasn't getting punished initially, Mutant society was lawless letting mutant go free ignoring man's rules
-Now people are complaining,Sabertooth should have been given amnesty like all of the other villains. Basically saying screw crimes he just committed and screw the government who was going to punish him.
- People are saying Krakoa judgment is too harsh as if your record of what you have done before doesn't play into your sentencing.

There is not going to be a perfect answer the scenario was not designed not to have a perfect answer and leave some question. But it interesting to see people go from Omg Creed isn't being punished to Omg Creed isn't get treated fairly being punished. Anyways I am waiting to see what happens the next someone needs to be punished what happens because Creed was given a chance to speak for himself and show remorse. And he threatens violence instead of asking showing remorse. I don't think the next person gets punished the same way. Let's say Loa kills a human I don't she is banished to Krakoa limbo for all of eternity, I think the why, how and if the person is remorseful will play a factor.

[JKtheMac]

No but I think it’s reasonable to blame the guy who created a death machine specifically coded to kill one subset of a population because he and his family are all violently bigoted. Machines encoded with explicit, destructive biases are not the same as guns. Racial violence with guns has later mutated into slave patrol enforcing black people which we still see with systemic racial violence in the police force towards minorities but especially black people. And that’s something that is acknowledged by at least a good number of people (see: BLM).

I got a little lost with that argument, so I will ask a question.

Do you think Magneto broke any principles of justice by sending an unstable psychopath with a compulsion to kill anyone that points a gun at him, into the field to conduct a black ops mission. Is his “I gave you strict instructions” a viable defence?

[JKtheMac]

Creed committed a crime. It is not some retroactive thing they took him out of another government custody who was going to deliver justice. I know it is not all the same fans but you guys can't complain about everything

See you are assuming we are complaining. I am enjoying the book and the issues it brings up. They are interesting and thorny issues. They are not supposed to be simple, and by waving a ‘it’s all justified’ hand over it we run the risk of loosing the nuances.

[HandofPrometheus]

Doug literally says "Bad news. It looks like leniency is out the window. I guess you know what to do" which to me indicates that Sabretooth lost all his mercy from Xavier when he threatened him and still displayed his ''idfc'' attitude towards his actions. Yes, they found him guilty but his sentence was probably going to be different.