HOUSE OF x [06] : I AM NOT ASHAMED [SPOILERS]

[Hulkout42]

I mean if it's not our 616 than by virtue it's an alternate reality but screw it at that point it would arguing semantics.

The proof is in the pudding in my opinion but I don't think some fans will be satisfied until Hickman himself comes out and declares that life 10 is the current 616 (and even then I doubt they will be lol)

You're asking for proof that this is the current 616 when honestly there's nothing that says it isn't besides a few characterizations that people disagree with. Life 10 lines up with what we know of the 616. This world is being carried over to the Dawn of X titles unless you're saying Hickman is going to suddenly throw in some last minute twist that it wasn't?

Which once again what purpose would that serve especially ending HoX the way he did? Right now all the emphasis is being placed on this Life 10. This is the life that Moira is using to "break all the rules" not Life 11.

I wouldn't go so far is to call it an AU...but frankly given what we are dealing with here in regards to what Hickman has Moira do with her power is something I don't believe has been explored before and therefore I can't find how to clasify it. I mean it's not time travel, it's not dimension hopping, it's not reincarnation as we know it so frankly i am stumped. Maybe in my case at least i do need him to tell me in order to accept it adn move on, wether other let it go or not is not really my concern but theirs.

I'm not saying Hickman will do or won't do anything because I don't bother to predict his actions anymore because I am frankly not on that level as far as mapping out the series of events that will take place in the grand scheme of things.

I can't tell you what purpose it would serve because like i said i could be wrong on all accounts and frankly if he does pull a twist it won't be at the prologue of this new path, at least i don't think he would but again Hickman is not someone you can really predict given his mastery over the long term plan as opposed to just winging it. Hell for all i know he is reading all these comments and going "Yes! Dance my puppets! Dance!"

[JKtheMac]

I wouldn't go so far is to call it an AU...but frankly given what we are dealing with here in regards to what Hickman has Moira do with her power is something I don't believe has been explored before and therefore I can't find how to clasify it. I mean it's not time travel, it's not dimension hopping, it's not reincarnation as we know it so frankly i am stumped. Maybe in my case at least i do need him to tell me in order to accept it adn move on, wether other let it go or not is not really my concern but theirs.

I'm not saying Hickman will do or won't do anything because I don't bother to predict his actions anymore because I am frankly not on that level as far as mapping out the series of events that will take place in the grand scheme of things.

I can't tell you what purpose it would serve because like i said i could be wrong on all accounts and frankly if he does pull a twist it won't be at the prologue of this new path, at least i don't think he would but again Hickman is not someone you can really predict given his mastery over the long term plan as opposed to just winging it. Hell for all i know he is reading all these comments and going "Yes! Dance my puppets! Dance!"

Put it this way. The PoX issues are entirely supplementary. In theory the status quo story is all contained in HoX and we shouldn’t need to read anything else to understand the new set-up. So yes, Moira’s lives inform the retcon, but it is just that. PoX gives us more context and allows us to understand the retcon more completely but the important twist was covered in the infographics of HoX. The lives of Moira are not the story of HoX they are just her motivation. Nothing in HoX would lead us to imagine we are seeing a different timeline to the one we are familiar with.

Logically, there is nothing else that would work anyway. The absurd idea that all of the comics we have read are scattered in the lives of Moira misses the whole point of those lives. Yes we recognise some of the events in her lives, but that is simply because she is not the main player in the story of the X-Men. Even in life 2 we see a hint that the X-Men emerged and went about broadly similar lives without Moira, otherwise how do they reach the point that Xavier makes an almost identical speech at a relatively late period of his own story.

The lives show how she gradually becomes embroiled in the major themes of the X-Men, and explores other options. At least one of her lives has to represent a near identical story just so we understand that she does know what is at stake and she does appreciate that some events that she may consider calamitous eventually work out for the best if she can just break a few rules, like resurrection for example.

[Jness]

I have never denied it is 616, all i have said is it is a different 616.

I believe all the lives she lived are all 616 but every life was different from the others because of Moira's actions in each life that had a different outcome that sent her back and starts the cycle anew.

If I'm wrong then I am wrong, just show me the proof and I will bow out of this notion 4ever more and never bring it up again.

More than one other Marvel comic has referenced the new situation of the X-Men, so by extension the entire MU series’ are in an alternate 616 if HoX is. It’s not an alternate anything.

[Jness]

What if we discover he is Techno-Organic Xavier. Would that make him a different Xavier? I half expect a Phalanx eye in his forehead.

Expanding on that, what if Xavier’s “Cerebro” is actually Phalanx in nature, and he can no longer take it off? I.e. the “one big step, no going back” referenced this issue is him knowing that he can’t remove the helmet once it’s on?

[JKtheMac]

Expanding on that, what if Xavier’s “Cerebro” is actually Phalanx in nature, and he can no longer take it off? I.e. the “one big step, no going back” referenced this issue is him knowing that he can’t remove the helmet once it’s on?

It would explain the far future of PoX as per my promethean theory that in a previous life Moira stole the technology of the far future and thereby brings the secret of resurrection back from the gods. An observer effect secret. That the lives of the mutants need to be observed in order to achieve resurrection, just as some post-modern cosmology ideas from the 90s suggested that we would all be resurrected in the deep future when life is able to know everything about the past and thereby observe everything in time and space.*

So yes, at least someone will have to put on the helmet and observe all of the lives of all of the mutants, throughout history, at least on a case by case individual level. That is a big commitment and a sacrifice. Whether it needs to be continuous and forever is up for debate.

It may suggest that Moira has been quietly developing the technology in the background, with Forge perhaps, and only now can Xavier observe a mutant’s stored memories and experiences in the required manner. The ultimate empathy machine perhaps. To experience the lives and deaths of every mutant from the past. Even perhaps those from before the machine was fully working. Which conveniently bypasses the concerns about which mutants can be brought back and which died too early.

*It is worth noting that the main stumbling block of these ideas have always been singularities, like black holes, because information about the past gets lost forever in them. In this story information is absorbed and stored in black holes, and as such it is preserved not destroyed.

Which randomly makes me wonder if the no-places are some kind of singularity.

[Stormultt Divine]

It would explain the far future of PoX as per my promethean theory that in a previous life Moira stole the technology of the far future and thereby brings the secret of resurrection back from the gods. An observer effect secret. That the lives of the mutants need to be observed in order to achieve resurrection, just as some post-modern cosmology ideas from the 90s suggested that we would all be resurrected in the deep future when life is able to know everything about the past and thereby observe everything in time and space.*

So yes, at least someone will have to put on the helmet and observe all of the lives of all of the mutants, throughout history, at least on a case by case individual level. That is a big commitment and a sacrifice. Whether it needs to be continuous and forever is up for debate.

It may suggest that Moira has been quietly developing the technology in the background, with Forge perhaps, and only now can Xavier observe a mutant’s stored memories and experiences in the required manner. The ultimate empathy machine perhaps. To experience the lives and deaths of every mutant from the past. Even perhaps those from before the machine was fully working. Which conveniently bypasses the concerns about which mutants can be brought back and which died too early.

*It is worth noting that the main stumbling block of these ideas have always been singularities, like black holes, because information about the past gets lost forever in them. In this story information is absorbed and stored in black holes, and as such it is preserved not destroyed.

Which randomly makes me wonder if the no-places are some kind of singularity.

This would explain X's line, "perhaps I'll never sleep again".
Good speculation

[Frobisher]

This would explain X's line, "perhaps I'll never sleep again".
Good speculation

I took that more as a "heavy lays the crown" type sentiment. Not everything in dialogue is literal!

[Tofali]

"Make More Mutants" so how is this going to be accomplished? I don't see Hickman doing this the conventional way so I'm going to guess we are heading to some sort of a eugenics war future? Lol! While reading Kurt "Make More Mutants views" I thought he sounded like Steve King wanting more white babies.

[jamesslow]

It would explain the far future of PoX as per my promethean theory that in a previous life Moira stole the technology of the far future and thereby brings the secret of resurrection back from the gods. An observer effect secret. That the lives of the mutants need to be observed in order to achieve resurrection, just as some post-modern cosmology ideas from the 90s suggested that we would all be resurrected in the deep future when life is able to know everything about the past and thereby observe everything in time and space.*

So yes, at least someone will have to put on the helmet and observe all of the lives of all of the mutants, throughout history, at least on a case by case individual level. That is a big commitment and a sacrifice. Whether it needs to be continuous and forever is up for debate.

It may suggest that Moira has been quietly developing the technology in the background, with Forge perhaps, and only now can Xavier observe a mutant’s stored memories and experiences in the required manner. The ultimate empathy machine perhaps. To experience the lives and deaths of every mutant from the past. Even perhaps those from before the machine was fully working. Which conveniently bypasses the concerns about which mutants can be brought back and which died too early.

*It is worth noting that the main stumbling block of these ideas have always been singularities, like black holes, because information about the past gets lost forever in them. In this story information is absorbed and stored in black holes, and as such it is preserved not destroyed.

Which randomly makes me wonder if the no-places are some kind of singularity.

For these stories to tie together, the events in X^3 narrated in POX MUST be known by Moira, so we should expect the Chekhovian infodump by Nimrod the Greater* (about intelligent planets being absorbed into worldminds, which link up through singularities, into a supercomputer which, by definition, exists across space AND time) would be used by Moira somehow in HOX**. This gives rise to 3 questions which I hope the CBR hivemind can help me answer before next Wednesday:

[1] The revelation in HOX that Charles has been saving every single mutant consciousness in Cerebro was used to explain the resurrection protocols but consider the possibility that the homo superior database may be something which can be activated like a supercomputer -- might this not, in a thousand years' time, rival a Phalanx Dominion? (Especially since Krakoa has a walking singularity in Xorn...)

[2] *Why would the Anti-Mutant Nimrod in X^2 be dubbed the "Lesser" unless someone pulling the strings is aware of and already waiting for a Pro-Mutant "Greater" version to come? (Could the "surprising end" to the Man-Machine-Mutant war have occurred in a flash, with all the AI switching sides on Moira's cue?)

[3] **Another bit of tech Moira may have brought back from the future through her Kryptonian crystal --SORRY-- Shi'ar diamond was the knowledge of how to build femto-fluid tubes which keep people alive for a very, very long time (while reducing them to pure data)... doesn't it look like there are 3 such tubes in her No-Place?

[tuck frump]

I like how "Make more mutants" seem to be a direct @ Wanda's "No more mutants".

[Stormultt Divine]

I took that more as a "heavy lays the crown" type sentiment. Not everything in dialogue is literal!

OooOh yeah?

I like how "Make more mutants" seem to be a direct @ Wanda's "No more mutants".

Ha, I caught that too.

[Devaishwarya]

I like how "Make more mutants" seem to be a direct @ Wanda's "No more mutants".

...and, not matter how they go about it...thorough Resurrection, Eugenics and/or good, old fashioned Sex...the idea is simply to propogate, to increase their numbers.

[Jness]

For these stories to tie together, the events in X^3 narrated in POX MUST be known by Moira, so we should expect the Chekhovian infodump by Nimrod the Greater* (about intelligent planets being absorbed into worldminds, which link up through singularities, into a supercomputer which, by definition, exists across space AND time) would be used by Moira somehow in HOX**. This gives rise to 3 questions which I hope the CBR hivemind can help me answer before next Wednesday:

[1] The revelation in HOX that Charles has been saving every single mutant consciousness in Cerebro was used to explain the resurrection protocols but consider the possibility that the homo superior database may be something which can be activated like a supercomputer -- might this not, in a thousand years' time, rival a Phalanx Dominion? (Especially since Krakoa has a walking singularity in Xorn...)

[2] *Why would the Anti-Mutant Nimrod in X^2 be dubbed the "Lesser" unless someone pulling the strings is aware of and already waiting for a Pro-Mutant "Greater" version to come? (Could the "surprising end" to the Man-Machine-Mutant war have occurred in a flash, with all the AI switching sides on Moira's cue?)

[3] **Another bit of tech Moira may have brought back from the future through her Kryptonian crystal --SORRY-- Shi'ar diamond was the knowledge of how to build femto-fluid tubes which keep people alive for a very, very long time (while reducing them to pure data)... doesn't it look like there are 3 such tubes in her No-Place?

Re: #1...

https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/commen...ox_and_xavier/

[Jness]

I took that more as a "heavy lays the crown" type sentiment. Not everything in dialogue is literal!

Actually that's the beauty of that line. I took it as a "heavy lays the crown" type thing, but now that it's been brought up this sort of "this looks like a metaphor but I mean it literally" is a narrative trick I vaguely remember Hicky doing before.

[JKtheMac]

[3] **Another bit of tech Moira may have brought back from the future through her Kryptonian crystal --SORRY-- Shi'ar diamond was the knowledge of how to build femto-fluid tubes which keep people alive for a very, very long time (while reducing them to pure data)... doesn't it look like there are 3 such tubes in her No-Place?

That’s a good catch. There may be some key early mutants that have been ‘saved’ and as such could be resurrected even though they predate Cerebro. (Assuming that this is important, because there are ways to hand wave that away and save any mutant from history with time travel, or indeed creative use of singularities.)