HOUSE OF x [06] : I AM NOT ASHAMED [SPOILERS]

[PsychoEFrost]

What you're skipping over is that Sabertooth committed no crime because the law that was invoked to justify punishing him did not exist until they created it at his show-trial. That's not how laws work. You can go on and on about what murderous scum Creed is, and that's fine, but morality should have no place in the application of a just law. What's fair for one is fair for all. What happened to Creed was totalitarianism, plain and simple. If you're one of those people who think criminals should have no rights, then I'm sure the prison industrial complex owes you a lunch voucher for the Texas roadhouse.

Exactly this. Creed is a psychotic monster. That doesn't mean any fair and just civilization gets to take all his rights away and torture him until the end of time. That's absolutely barbaric, and the fact that Jean or Kurt was okay with that shows how massively OOC they are right now.

[H-E-D]

He was also punished for willfulling disobeying a direct order.

[Silver Fang]

Exactly this. Creed is a psychotic monster. That doesn't mean any fair and just civilization gets to take all his rights away and torture him until the end of time. That's absolutely barbaric, and the fact that Jean or Kurt was okay with that shows how massively OOC they are right now.

Well Jean did have some hesitation before she said she agreed. Which I thought was ooc since she'd be the first to condemn him. But you'd think Kurt would've been the one to hesitate.

[hawkeyefan]

Exactly this. Creed is a psychotic monster. That doesn't mean any fair and just civilization gets to take all his rights away and torture him until the end of time. That's absolutely barbaric, and the fact that Jean or Kurt was okay with that shows how massively OOC they are right now.

Who says Krakoa is fair and just?

[Killerbee911]

What was the better solution? Banish him and he finds someone to kill or his way back? Build Prisons on Krakoa? The turn resurrections into something people can abuse by deciding who comes back? If you think there is an answer that doesn't lead to something messed up you are fooling yourself. Creed Punishment was actually the lesser of evils

Creed commited a crime they took him out of human custody who was going to punish him. Mutants said they aren't trusting humans to give proper judgment. It does mean mutants breaking human laws will go unpunished.The government was formed and they put in laws and Sabertooth was punished

[Silver Fang]

What was the better solution? Banish him and he finds someone to kill or his way back? Build Prisons on Krakoa? The turn resurrections into something people can abuse by deciding who comes back? If you think there is an answer that doesn't lead to something messed up you are fooling yourself. Creed Punishment was actually the lesser of evils

Well if anything, they could've at least put him to sleep down there. lol
Go the X-Factor route & get a restraining device or chip on him that keeps him in line.
Bring Scarlet Witch to Krakoa & have her Invert him again. Make Angelus = Angel again.

[cranger]

Again someone trying to dictate how stories are told. This is an event driven story and it was always going to be so because that is what Hickman does. He is probably the best current writer at this style working in comics.

I only explained why it has not worked for me. Heaven forbid someone criticize a book or writer you like.

[powerpax]

Creed is basically in stasis (I think Xavier even says that) while conscious. It is the least he deserves. The X-Men have seen villains punished with more for less.

[Electricmastro]

Yeahh no, the thing is most decent people know better than to casually make comparisons to Nazis as the butt of a joke in regards to a fictional storyline. Whatever it takes to ignore the fact that mutants have a right to protect themselves, I guess.

Is there a limit to how far a group can take action based on reasoning of self-defense though?

[hawkeyefan]

What was the better solution? Banish him and he finds someone to kill or his way back? Build Prisons on Krakoa? The turn resurrections into something people can abuse by deciding who comes back? If you think there is an answer that doesn't lead to something messed up you are fooling yourself. Creed Punishment was actually the lesser of evils

Creed commited a crime they took him out of human custody who was going to punish him. Mutants said they aren't trusting humans to give proper judgment. It does mean mutants breaking human laws will go unpunished.The government was formed and they put in laws and Sabertooth was punished

That’s all valid.

I think it just comes down to there not really being any easy choice here.

I think that they had to take Creed from the human court in order to maintain the amnesty, but once they had him they had to decide what to do with him.

And I don’t think that you can pass such judgment and do all the other things that founding a nation requires and still come out of it all with your hands clean.

They’re kind of beyond personal morality here.

[Killerbee911]

Honestly you want the potential for rehabilitation in these things but the story is implying they don't have capability. I mean I don't get why it is "forever" and not say 120 years about one human life span or combined amount all of human lifespans he killed.

Forever is a clear story choice and there meant to have no easy answer. Anyways societies evolve at one point death penalty was more prevalent and people use to die by hanging. Krakoa can evolve too

[JB]

And I don’t think that you can pass such judgment and do all the other things that founding a nation requires and still come out of it all with your hands clean.

They’re kind of beyond personal morality here.

Agreed. To me his biggest crime was jeopardizing the nation state they are building and working to get globally recognized.

[powerpax]

Go the X-Factor route & get a restraining device or chip on him that keeps him in line.
Bring Scarlet Witch to Krakoa & have her Invert him again.

LOL they should never let Wanda Maximoff within a hundred miles of them again.

The Sabretooth/Mystique/etc. X-Factor run with Steve Epting art was very flawed but genuinely interesting. I think an X-Force ancillary-type book with Creed chipped or otherwise mentally conditioned again could be interesting, but for now I don't blame them at all for burying him deep in the earth. Next up should be Selene and eventually, Sinister.

The Creed solution is dark and morally ambiguous. It is meant to be in the writing. It is also IMO, for now, more than justified. It is in part meant to spark debates like this one. All of House of X is.

As for Raven - when she cut Moira down like a dog in 2001, that was it for me. I wanted her dead. I was over all the justifications for her long lifetime in service of antihero goals re: mutant freedom. They should've hunted her down and killed her. That went double after the Marauders trap in Carey's run. But Mystique is still a fascinating, complex character who always has her own reasons. I happen to still find most of her reasons to be psychotic bullshit, but she's compelling nonetheless. And as she hasn't actually killed Moira after all, I am happy to see her continue and evolve. If she can't find a more stable and functional place in the new Krakoan order, the maw can always await her too.

[JB]

Honestly you want the potential for rehabilitation in these things but the story is implying they don't have capability. I mean I don't get why it is "forever" and not say 120 years about one human life span or combined amount all of human lifespans he killed. Forever is clear story choice. Anyways societies evolve at one point death penalty was more prevalent and people use to die by hanging.

"Perhaps... one day, a time might come when you have an opportunity to redeem yourself. But that time is not now, and until it is, you are exiled."

[Maestroneto]

LOL they should never let Wanda Maximoff within a hundred miles of them again.

The Sabretooth/Mystique/etc. X-Factor run with Steve Epting art was very flawed but genuinely interesting. I think an X-Force ancillary-type book with Creed chipped or otherwise mentally conditioned again could be interesting, but for now I don't blame them at all for burying him deep in the earth. Next up should be Selene and eventually, Sinister.

The Creed solution is dark and morally ambiguous. It is meant to be in the writing. It is also IMO, for now, more than justified. It is in part meant to spark debates like this one. All of House of X is.

As for Raven - when she cut Moira down like a dog in 2001, that was it for me. I wanted her dead. I was over all the justifications for her long lifetime in service of antihero goals re: mutant freedom. They should've hunted her down and killed her. That went double after the Marauders trap in Carey's run. But Mystique is still a fascinating, complex character who always has her own reasons. I happen to still find most of her reasons to be psychotic bullshit, but she's compelling nonetheless. And as she hasn't actually killed Moira after all, I am happy to see her continue and evolve. If she can't find a more stable and functional place in the new Krakoan order, the maw can always await her too.

Let's not forget that Scott did, in fact, put a hit on Mystique and Logan left her for dead right after and then actually killed her sometime later.