Fresh Start is the Super Villain Truce?

[jackolover]

I do wonder that Marvel may be in the process of exercising some Super Villain Truce in the Fresh Start? I seem to see villains getting more benefits than the heroes in the stories, since Fresh Start. Heroes have had to chase around and try to defend themselves from societies attacks on them, and villains are better at manipulating society than the heroes. Is this period at Marvel an exercise in a sort of Super Villain Truce?

There are some difficulties for the villains here though. I would have expected that allowing villains to get what they want, they would accumulate their benefits and be content. But what we are seeing is some vendetta against Super heroes, so the attaining of a villains Truce hasn’t really gained that much for super villains, as seen by Doctor Dooms troubles in his new series. The super villains still seem to gravitate back to focusing on attacking the super heroes even though the villains can get what they want.

Maybe super villains have become smarter? Really, super villains are just super heroes anyway, that went off the rails. If you make Magneto, Dr Octopus, and Namor the good guys, what do the super heroes get compared too? But I’m thinking in this exercise to give the super villains what they want, they really aren’t enjoying the fruits of their labour that much, being distracted by the super heroes to some degree. I wonder if Marvel think this is what a Super Villains Truce would look like if you had to orchestrate it?

[Desmark]

Hmm. The super villains do seem to be in a favourable position having achieved a major goal. Kingpin is the mayor, The mutant villains are on Krakoa with the X-Men, Ultron has unwittingly triggered a robotic revolution leading to a rise of machines, Zemo got what he wanted out of secret Empire, Loki has become a king of frost giants, Bruce's dad has been proven right, Thanos is.. dead, Mephisto is making deals like there's no tomorrow, Carnage has gotten religion, Venom has a son and so on. Even the newest villain Star introduced in Captain Marvel has received a mini.However Malekith,Mandarin and some others like scorpion, Dracula, Doom have suffered setbacks so it's not all rosy. Lol

[jackolover]

Hmm. The super villains do seem to be in a favourable position having achieved a major goal. Kingpin is the mayor, The mutant villains are on Krakoa with the X-Men, Ultron has unwittingly triggered a robotic revolution leading to a rise of machines, Zemo got what he wanted out of secret Empire, Loki has become a king of frost giants, Bruce's dad has been proven right, Thanos is.. dead, Mephisto is making deals like there's no tomorrow, Carnage has gotten religion, Venom has a son and so on. Even the newest villain Star introduced in Captain Marvel has received a mini.However Malekith,Mandarin and some others like scorpion, Dracula, Doom have suffered setbacks so it's not all rosy. Lol

Thanks for filling in the gaps with so many other examples I forgot. I didn’t realise how super villains had made it so good in the current world.

It does seem that a villains Truce is much closer in this Fresh Start than even I was aware. Norman Osborn should be all over this trend as it was he that got the full benefit of a villains compromise in Dark Reign than it ever was.

[Huntsman Spider]

Thanks for filling in the gaps with so many other examples I forgot. I didn’t realise how super villains had made it so good in the current world.

It does seem that a villains Truce is much closer in this Fresh Start than even I was aware. Norman Osborn should be all over this trend as it was he that got the full benefit of a villains compromise in Dark Reign than it ever was.

He would be, if Go Down Swinging didn't take him out of play at the end by having his personality effectively overwritten by Cletus Kasady's after the Carnage symbiote was incinerated in an explosion while it was attempting to bond with him again. That said, according to the Absolute Carnage tie-in in Amazing Spider-Man #30, he's still one of the "voices" rattling around in that deranged brain, so he could (and likely would, given Marvel's inclinations) make a comeback sooner or later.

[Lukmendes]

He would be, if Go Down Swinging didn't take him out of play at the end by having his personality effectively overwritten by Cletus Kasady's after the Carnage symbiote was incinerated in an explosion while it was attempting to bond with him again. That said, according to the Absolute Carnage tie-in in Amazing Spider-Man #30, he's still one of the "voices" rattling around in that deranged brain, so he could (and likely would, given Marvel's inclinations) make a comeback sooner or later.

Small correction, but that was from ASM#31.

If by what Kindred says, he'll come back to "see the truth together", probably alongside Peter, so unless he gets booted out, it's definitely happening in Spencer's own run.

And Norman's personality is aware of what's going on, since he essentially talked through "Cletus", and if you pay attention, for most of "Cletus'" speech, whenever he's talking for Norman, he says "he", but at the very end, instead of saying "He's so proud of you", he says "I'm so proud of you", so for a moment he took control, and maybe Norman laughing at the end was actually Norman himself and not "Cletus".

[Raye]

Except a lot of this happened long before Fresh Start, or it is very debatable that it could be called any kind of truce. What you are seeing is, I think, just more modern readers and writers being less interested in a stark black and white depictions, people want to see more gray in the characters, and to see character development actually stick, and that is reflected in some of the stories. (broadly, there are exceptions, some writers obviously want to go back to status quo)

You seem to keep wanting to look at these relaunches as some sweeping overarching plot or mandate, but they're not, or at least not the one you seem to see. They are just marketing, are just a way to loosely group the stories together for a relaunch. Marvel isn't really big on big overarching universe wide plotlines these days. There are events, sure, thwt a lot of books will tie into but not like stuff with themes or whatever.

[Huntsman Spider]

Small correction, but that was from ASM#31.

If by what Kindred says, he'll come back to "see the truth together", probably alongside Peter, so unless he gets booted out, it's definitely happening in Spencer's own run.

And Norman's personality is aware of what's going on, since he essentially talked through "Cletus", and if you pay attention, for most of "Cletus'" speech, whenever he's talking for Norman, he says "he", but at the very end, instead of saying "He's so proud of you", he says "I'm so proud of you", so for a moment he took control, and maybe Norman laughing at the end was actually Norman himself and not "Cletus".

Thanks for the correction. Probably should've said ASM #30-31. That said, interesting observation. Maybe Norman's return is closer than we realize.

[jackolover]

Except a lot of this happened long before Fresh Start, or it is very debatable that it could be called any kind of truce. What you are seeing is, I think, just more modern readers and writers being less interested in a stark black and white depictions, people want to see more gray in the characters, and to see character development actually stick, and that is reflected in some of the stories. (broadly, there are exceptions, some writers obviously want to go back to status quo)

You seem to keep wanting to look at these relaunches as some sweeping overarching plot or mandate, but they're not, or at least not the one you seem to see. They are just marketing, are just a way to loosely group the stories together for a relaunch. Marvel isn't really big on big overarching universe wide plotlines these days. There are events, sure, thwt a lot of books will tie into but not like stuff with themes or whatever.

I’m more inclined to think of it as a trend rather than an overarching plot line. If you allow villains to gain the ascendency in your society, doesn’t that tell you something about that society? I haven’t seen as much villain ascendancy as is this current Fresh Start, (and as you say, it started before that, and, it is a graying of characters).

I still can’t reconcile a Villains Truce per se, in Marvels Universe. That would take quite a calamity to make that possible. Maybe someday. But Hickman’s Secret Wars? That came close.

[jackolover]

He would be, if Go Down Swinging didn't take him out of play at the end by having his personality effectively overwritten by Cletus Kasady's after the Carnage symbiote was incinerated in an explosion while it was attempting to bond with him again. That said, according to the Absolute Carnage tie-in in Amazing Spider-Man #30, he's still one of the "voices" rattling around in that deranged brain, so he could (and likely would, given Marvel's inclinations) make a comeback sooner or later.

Thanks for the update about Norman Osborn. I didn’t know the world had changed so much. (Not a big fan of reading about Carnage). But Norman is a great one for navigating through crazy people. Look at how he dealt with Sentry in Dark Avengers.

[Raye]

I’m more inclined to think of it as a trend rather than an overarching plot line. If you allow villains to gain the ascendency in your society, doesn’t that tell you something about that society? I haven’t seen as much villain ascendancy as is this current Fresh Start, (and as you say, it started before that, and, it is a graying of characters).

I still can’t reconcile a Villains Truce per se, in Marvels Universe. That would take quite a calamity to make that possible. Maybe someday. But Hickman’s Secret Wars? That came close.

But it's not 'villain ascendancy' they aren't winning. There are two basic things going on, neither of them is anything particularly new.

One group is former villains who are turning face, they maybe are not all the way there yet, some may not succeed in the end, but they are at least making an attempt. Loki, questionably Magneto, Doc Ock, recently Doom but he backslid (though we will see if he can turn it around). They are getting what they want, sort of, sure, but not because they are doing anything villainous. Quite the opposite; they want to turn over a new leaf and at least some of them are succeeding, and being rewarded for doing good. Loki got the throne for Jotunheim (though, turns out he doesn't really want it, and would rather join the Avengers) because he saved the planet from being frozen solid when he killed Laufey, even tho it was a bit of a rocky road to get to that point, and right now he legit wants to be a good guy, and his brother is trying to give him a chance to prove himself. Ock also legitimately wants to do good, and is trying to do that and is being rewarded for the attempt. Magneto... unclear, we'll see, but he's been doing this sort of thing for decades, he's constantly flip flopping, this is nothing new. He's worked with the X-Men many times before. I think it says something good about a society that lets people try and change for the better.

The other group is villains who are in the middle of a story arc of some kind, and will presumably get their comeuppance when the story finishes, like I am sure Carnage is gonna get smacked down pretty hard at the end of the event, Venom, (who is a previous face-turn graduate, who at least made it to anti-hero, like i said, nothing new) Spider-Man and the others are certainly trying their hardest to stop him. It may be a very slow burn story, such as with Mayor Fisk, and it feels like Mephisto stuff is also slow burn and probably building to an event or something, but there is no indication that the good guys are just letting them go. (I don't think the heroes are even aware of Mephisto's manipulations right now, they probably just think he's straight up imprisoned, which was Strange's intent, and that's the end of it. He is doing a lot of plotting, but it's on the down low, operating through others) it's just that we have to wait for the stories to play out. We're in the middle of things, it's not that they've won, but they have to appear that they could, or the story doesn't really have stakes worth talking about.

the murky situation is the X-Men, but I am sure Hickman has plans there, we just have to see what they are. But I am sure it probably won't be that the bad guys win, at least not permanently.

[jackolover]

Good points all round.

To me, it points to the possibility of a villains Truce. As you say, villains are starting to do good, and I think this is the formula Norman Osborn used in Dark Reign, albeit, a little over-stretched. I think this is the way to villains Truce. When the villains get to the state they want to do something better, then, do you have villains anymore? Hard to say. I still think so. Once you turn, (and it was done in AXIS where villains inverted), you immerse yourself in society, and society sees you are helping now. The issue is, can a villains tendencies be completely submerged?

A villains Truce is one where society accepts that villains are doing helpful things, like Wilson Fisk, but society knows he is a criminal, and that behind the curtain, Wilson is still engaged with shady business. That, I think is getting close to real world society.

I have been doing research on an article and have noticed that Banks are still able to hoodwink society to continue the use of CDO’s, which caused the 2008 GFC bubble to explode. These bankers are still allowed to do this and ban any attempt at regulating them. Why? Because they have the stronger lobby groups. These are villains, and we allow them to take our money.

You know what? Talking about Mephisto, how does Silver Age Silver Surfer go from being Galactus’ errand boy to standing in front of Mephisto with his beloved in chains? I would really like a hard cover of all the significant appearances of Mephisto in stories.

[Hypestyle]

I'm sick to death of face-turning for villains, and it seems that unless you are a heretofore unrepentant mass murderer like Carnage, that you are somehow redeemable for certain writers, and it's expected, the general public. I don't buy it. I just won't.

[jackolover]

Villainy. It’s a mysterious thing. Do you wants your villains to be cackling hunchbacks, who have nothing going for them? Or people in business suits where butter couldn’t melt in their mouth?

[Raye]

Good points all round.

To me, it points to the possibility of a villains Truce. As you say, villains are starting to do good, and I think this is the formula Norman Osborn used in Dark Reign, albeit, a little over-stretched. I think this is the way to villains Truce. When the villains get to the state they want to do something better, then, do you have villains anymore? Hard to say. I still think so. Once you turn, (and it was done in AXIS where villains inverted), you immerse yourself in society, and society sees you are helping now. The issue is, can a villains tendencies be completely submerged?

A villains Truce is one where society accepts that villains are doing helpful things, like Wilson Fisk, but society knows he is a criminal, and that behind the curtain, Wilson is still engaged with shady business. That, I think is getting close to real world society.

I have been doing research on an article and have noticed that Banks are still able to hoodwink society to continue the use of CDO’s, which caused the 2008 GFC bubble to explode. These bankers are still allowed to do this and ban any attempt at regulating them. Why? Because they have the stronger lobby groups. These are villains, and we allow them to take our money.

You know what? Talking about Mephisto, how does Silver Age Silver Surfer go from being Galactus’ errand boy to standing in front of Mephisto with his beloved in chains? I would really like a hard cover of all the significant appearances of Mephisto in stories.

Plot. Story happened. Character development happened. That's the answer for everything from the face turning villains to Silver Surfer. The characters are not defined forever as one thing, they can change, that's the point. There was a time where almost everything always reverted to status quo, with a few exceptions, sure. And it still happens. But what you're seeing I think is that audiences and the writers are wanting to have some character and plot developments stick, have the characters go through transformative arcs and not just undo it all for the next writer. The 'illusion of change' is falling out of fashion, at least with some writers/editors. What you are describing is still not 'villain ascendancy' because they are not villains any more. Or are at least on the path to not being villains. While I understand why a lot of readers still refer to them as villains given their history, at the moment in the books, their actions do not match the label of villain. They are not doing villain things. Maybe their methods are a bit dubious at times, but they are not trying to cause harm. It sounds like you are assuming it's a ploy rather than a genuine change. And while I think that is the case with Fisk, at least in the case of Loki and Ock, possibly Magneto and Doom, it is a genuine change, they actually do feel bad about at least some of the things they've done in the past, and want to make changes. They're not at like, outright hero levels, they're anti-heroes, and will likely stay more gray area characters, but they're still not villains. All of those characters have vastly different backstories and motivations, and they can't all be lumped together just because they all were created as villains, they all had different paths. And just because these characters are doing that, it doesn't mean it's some kind of universal trend. They are a minority, if you look at the big picture, they just are getting more focus than some previous face turns who were lower tier characters (Songbird and the like) or they happened so long ago it's sometimes easy to forget they started out as villains (Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver, Rogue and the like) There will always be unrepentant villains to come on the scene who the good guys have to stop, Red Skull or Carnage are unlikely to ever turn face, and new villains can always be introduced.

and to the point made above, I have seen people who have made great changes in their lives for the better, (this will seem a bit random but it comes from the heart, and he's just a guy, so it's relatable, so here, a link to a youtuber who went from attempted murder to successful aquarium guru and really nice guy who has done lots of good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf9IGQ8WAOM ) so I don't find it unbelievable that certain villains can come to realize the error of their ways, I think it would be unrealistic if at least a few of them didn't. Yeah, they start out from a worse place than would happen in real life cus drama, but that's just comics for you, everything is bigger than real life. Not everyone will want to change, most won't, but some will. I think it's aspirational and encouraging to be reminded that you can always do better than your worst moment. It seems like a horribly pessimistic view to assume someone should forever be defined by their worst actions and can never move on from that.

[jackolover]

Plot. Story happened. Character development happened. That's the answer for everything from the face turning villains to Silver Surfer. The characters are not defined forever as one thing, they can change, that's the point. There was a time where almost everything always reverted to status quo, with a few exceptions, sure. And it still happens. But what you're seeing I think is that audiences and the writers are wanting to have some character and plot developments stick, have the characters go through transformative arcs and not just undo it all for the next writer. The 'illusion of change' is falling out of fashion, at least with some writers/editors. What you are describing is still not 'villain ascendancy' because they are not villains any more. Or are at least on the path to not being villains. While I understand why a lot of readers still refer to them as villains given their history, at the moment in the books, their actions do not match the label of villain. They are not doing villain things. Maybe their methods are a bit dubious at times, but they are not trying to cause harm. It sounds like you are assuming it's a ploy rather than a genuine change. And while I think that is the case with Fisk, at least in the case of Loki and Ock, possibly Magneto and Doom, it is a genuine change, they actually do feel bad about at least some of the things they've done in the past, and want to make changes. They're not at like, outright hero levels, they're anti-heroes, and will likely stay more gray area characters, but they're still not villains. All of those characters have vastly different backstories and motivations, and they can't all be lumped together just because they all were created as villains, they all had different paths. And just because these characters are doing that, it doesn't mean it's some kind of universal trend. They are a minority, if you look at the big picture, they just are getting more focus than some previous face turns who were lower tier characters (Songbird and the like) or they happened so long ago it's sometimes easy to forget they started out as villains (Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver, Rogue and the like) There will always be unrepentant villains to come on the scene who the good guys have to stop, Red Skull or Carnage are unlikely to ever turn face, and new villains can always be introduced.

and to the point made above, I have seen people who have made great changes in their lives for the better, (this will seem a bit random but it comes from the heart, and he's just a guy, so it's relatable, so here, a link to a youtuber who went from attempted murder to successful aquarium guru and really nice guy who has done lots of good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf9IGQ8WAOM ) so I don't find it unbelievable that certain villains can come to realize the error of their ways, I think it would be unrealistic if at least a few of them didn't. Yeah, they start out from a worse place than would happen in real life cus drama, but that's just comics for you, everything is bigger than real life. Not everyone will want to change, most won't, but some will. I think it's aspirational and encouraging to be reminded that you can always do better than your worst moment. It seems like a horribly pessimistic view to assume someone should forever be defined by their worst actions and can never move on from that.

Yes, I agree, it is pessimistic to only think villains never change, and I do get encouraged by the Marvel view that villains can change. That’s very positive about Marvel, (and not Scorsese).

One of the things I am looking for is this point we can get to, where everyone lives together, (of course not the Red Skulls or Carnages). I had this vision in Dark Reign, where I thought these villain aspirations were not being realised and that continual frustration of super heroes thwarting them, was continuing this cycle of violence, but what for? Surely, if you give these villains this opportunity to achieve something, (and I’m looking at Doc Ock, and Wilson Fisk, which gives them pride in their achievements), then you stop that cycle of violence. Of course, not all villains get to that place where they can get over themselves, (like a Sandman did), but continue to lead with their chins. But if you put in place a process whereby villains are given the option to engage in a worthwhile enterprise they can agree with? That, I think, is going to take a lot of the heat out of societies many confrontations.

It’s like Marvel is about Monsters, and what happens to Monsters. You start with all the people we know starting out as Monsters, and something happens to them, and now they’re Super Heroes. And it looks like they’ve got this mission, that they want to transform all the other villains in the world, that were just like them. And it was taking a long time, but eventually, something is happening, (and maybe it’s what you say, it’s just writers graying characters and so, villains don’t look so bad). And villains, that used to be pretty much black and white villains, were becoming something different..

So, for example, Peter Parker started off very bitter and marginalised in high school. Everybody bullied him and wouldn’t include him in their society. And then Peter went in wrestling matches and on television, making money, and to hell with everybody else, unlike his uncle and aunt, who he loved. Peter Parker could have been one of those high school shooters, but something happened, and he didn’t become a high school shooter. You could describe everyone of those early Super Heroes in the same way. Then you look at what they became, and you see them interacting with villains, and you have to wonder, is there an overarching mission going on here? It could be, without anybody consciously knowing it. Redemption?