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  1. #181
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    This has ALWAYS been my problem with her as a character. Well, ever since she left Joker anyway (before that her character was a lot more clear- both victim and enabler, but definitely a villain).

    But ever since they can't figure out if she counts as a real villain or not. Hint- if she does stuff that gets people killed and doesn't care, she IS.

    The problem is that they want her to remain her kooky self without being as bad as she was with Joker- but Joker MADE her that way according to her own origin story. So keeping the aspects of her "craziness" that he brought out in her while they were together is not a boon for her own independence.

    This version tries harder to say that she was already crazy before they met, so even her nuttiness is her own...but the flashback episode didn't make it seem like she was that crazy. Her origin is so specific- it's always been presented that she was a co-dependent, damaged person who was able to be coaxed and manipulated by him into becoming the clown sidekick he wanted her to be, and even her original creators always stated that she was like a "battered woman" who always goes back to the guy who hurts her. If a person like that were to be separated from their obsession they wouldn't likely retain all the aspects of who he made her into, unless it was because she wanted to go back to him.

  2. #182
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    I don't think that there are "innocents" on this show; just "civilians". Remember the guy who was talking the Ivy, while she was being held by the Scarecrow in Season 1? The guy apparently is a "goon" as a side-job.t seems to me that in this "universe", costumed superheroes/villains are treated as celebrities. I mean, why would there be a Legion of Doom chapter in the middle of Gotham City? And in this latest episode, Gordon was rallying people to go out and attack Harley and her crew. Not exactly standard police work...

  3. #183
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    Yeah, the show gets around Harley being a villain by making this a villainverse. The traditional heroes are all a bunch of Captain Hammer types. Everyone is self-interested and narcissistic. The closest thing to a good person in this world is someone who genuinely cares about a few friends and family, like the stars, and the occasional guest-star like Mister Freeze.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by dswynne View Post
    I don't think that there are "innocents" on this show; just "civilians". Remember the guy who was talking the Ivy, while she was being held by the Scarecrow in Season 1? The guy apparently is a "goon" as a side-job.t seems to me that in this "universe", costumed superheroes/villains are treated as celebrities. I mean, why would there be a Legion of Doom chapter in the middle of Gotham City? And in this latest episode, Gordon was rallying people to go out and attack Harley and her crew. Not exactly standard police work...
    Civilians don't count as innocents?

    Standard police work or not he was just rallying the citizens to overthrow the last major villain left in Gotham so they could free the city.
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Yeah, the show gets around Harley being a villain by making this a villainverse. The traditional heroes are all a bunch of Captain Hammer types. Everyone is self-interested and narcissistic. The closest thing to a good person in this world is someone who genuinely cares about a few friends and family, like the stars, and the occasional guest-star like Mister Freeze.
    I don't know if we've seen enough of the heroes in general to really get that sense. I mean, they've established this season that his ego is pretty huge he's ultimately still a good guy out to protect the city and help people. And just look at Batgirl, she may be a little immature about the life but she's committed to helping people and saving the day for the sake of it and not as an ego trip (unless you count the boost it's giving to her social media account).

    Harley only really cares about Harley and Ivy when you think about it.

  5. #185
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    How did this show make Dr. Psycho my favorite?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Civilians don't count as innocents?

    Standard police work or not he was just rallying the citizens to overthrow the last major villain left in Gotham so they could free the city.
    In this case? No, they are not "innocent". They are combatants at this point, and Gordon uses them as overkill in his attempt to apprehend Harley, who wouldn't have gone with Dr. Psycho's suggestion of becoming a warlord had Batgirl (who pleaded with her father to not do what he did) not warn Harley of what Gordon was planning on doing. And Gordon didn't even care that people died around him, so long as he "won" his fight with Harley.

    And I agree with the poster who commented that we're not dealing with a normal version of the DC Universe here. Just my opinion, of course...

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Yeah, the show gets around Harley being a villain by making this a villainverse. The traditional heroes are all a bunch of Captain Hammer types. Everyone is self-interested and narcissistic. The closest thing to a good person in this world is someone who genuinely cares about a few friends and family, like the stars, and the occasional guest-star like Mister Freeze.
    I'm not so sure that they get around her being a villian, I mean they kinda show it. She did rob a bank. She kidnapped a kid and hung him over a vat of water where a half-man/Half-shark creature nearly killed him. She then proceeded to bust said Half-Man, Half Shark out of prison. She ransomed the city for a hot wheels themed highway named after her. She assaulted several security guards at a Bar Mitzvah. She robbed a Wayne Tech building where as a direct result a man's head was bitten off sooo she's associated with a murder.

    She is also privy to the murder of an entire family (She knew about it, she knew who did it and she didn't report it to the police even though we know she would never do that but an entire family is dead bc of a plan she came up with and a person part of her crew enacted). Also she busted said crew member out of an armed transport.

    Also she severely beat up a teenage college campus mascot. The list goes on.

    Harley is a full blown villain. I'm confused as to where ppl think she's just a misunderstood and lovable scamp that's just having fun. NAh. She's a crazed lunatic, that needs to be locked up. She's a villain no doubt.

    Closest thing to a good person on the show is Barbara.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by dswynne View Post
    In this case? No, they are not "innocent". They are combatants at this point, and Gordon uses them as overkill in his attempt to apprehend Harley, who wouldn't have gone with Dr. Psycho's suggestion of becoming a warlord had Batgirl (who pleaded with her father to not do what he did) not warn Harley of what Gordon was planning on doing. And Gordon didn't even care that people died around him, so long as he "won" his fight with Harley.
    But in the context they were citizens rising up against the last major villain in Gotham and who, as was shown in the premiere, preferred it being a lawless, anarchy-ridden city. So maybe they weren't non-combatants but they didn't deserve what happened to them either.

    I hold Barbara partially responsible for what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by the nomad View Post
    Closest thing to a good person on the show is Barbara.
    And even Babs is kind of the dumb kind of good person that she thinks Harley's a good guy just because she happened to take down a few villains and Babs ignored the entire context around why she did it.

  9. #189
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Barbara is a native fangirl who's in over her head. She's someone who's lucked themselves into success rather then actually being good at what she does.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Barbara is a native fangirl who's in over her head. She's someone who's lucked themselves into success rather then actually being good at what she does.
    I think she's good enough that she hasn't gotten killed yet, but putting your acts of being a vigilante on your social media account is kind of...concerning?

    I mean, the first time she knocked a guy down she had to make sure she didn't kill him .

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But in the context they were citizens rising up against the last major villain in Gotham and who, as was shown in the premiere, preferred it being a lawless, anarchy-ridden city. So maybe they weren't non-combatants but they didn't deserve what happened to them either.

    I hold Barbara partially responsible for what happened.

    And even Babs is kind of the dumb kind of good person that she thinks Harley's a good guy just because she happened to take down a few villains and Babs ignored the entire context around why she did it.
    I was wondering if we're supposed to think Harley's actually good because Babs apparently does. I'm not sure if the show wants us to think Harley's actually good or not....though I also think we're at the point now where we're supposed to think even Ivy's not bad either.

  12. #192
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    I'm surprised Nora Fries was willing to go along with two women she barely knows and feels are responsible for her husband's death...though her hooking up with Maxie Zeus was more surprising. I think Victor would have wanted her to move on, but not like that.

    Is there anything Catwoman cares about beyond stealing stuff?

    A spur of the moment kiss is one thing, but two drunken hookups is another. Ivy has officially cheated on Kite Man with Harley and she's still keeping it from him. And you could tell she was emotionally open to getting with Harley before she made her decision at the end. And this is to the same guy who was adamant about not having strippers at his Bachelor's Party. Kite Man deserves better.

    Isn't Eris a god? Should she really be defeated as easily as just throwing her off a balcony?

  13. #193
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    Poor Kite Man.

    Once again though, I totally disagree with their characterization of Harley. She's not somebody who "runs from one thing to another," if anything she's a co-dependent, submissive personality who obsessively latches on to anyone who shows her affection and does what they want, which is the explanation for her entire relationship with the Joker! From the very beginning, Paul Dini and Bruce Timm described her as the equivalent of the battered wife/girlfriend who always goes back to the abusive partner no matter what he does. That was who Harley Quinn is. And that explained (even on the animated series) her original connection to Poison Ivy as well, as basically a replacement partner instead of Joker when he wasn't there to lead her around. She has THAT kind of personality, one who needs somebody to be with.

    So, it really doesn't make sense for Ivy to think she'd ditch her, if anything Harley would probably be hers forever if that's what she wanted.

    I still don't like this version of Catwoman. Something about her voice is just off to me. I also think it's noticeable that this Catwoman seems to have no connection or association with Batman at all (and I can't help but wonder about that, because it seems to me the only time they're not romantically linked is when Catwoman is black, from Eartha Kitt to Halle Berry and now here- I assume that's finally gonna change with the Matt Reeves movie and Zoe Kravitz, but still...there's been a tendency to do that historically now, and that's not cool imo).
    Last edited by lilyrose; 05-30-2020 at 01:29 AM.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilyrose View Post
    Poor Kite Man.

    Once again though, I totally disagree with their characterization of Harley. She's not somebody who "runs from one thing to another," if anything she's a co-dependent, submissive personality who obsessively latches on to anyone who shows her affection and does what they want, which is the explanation for her entire relationship with the Joker! From the very beginning, Paul Dini and Bruce Timm described her as the equivalent of the battered wife/girlfriend who always goes back to the abusive partner no matter what he does. That was who Harley Quinn is. And that explained (even on the animated series) her original connection to Poison Ivy as well, as basically a replacement partner instead of Joker when he wasn't there to lead her around. She has THAT kind of personality, one who needs somebody to be with.

    So, it really doesn't make sense for Ivy to think she'd ditch her, if anything Harley would probably be hers forever if that's what she wanted.

    I still don't like this version of Catwoman. Something about her voice is just off to me. I also think it's noticeable that this Catwoman seems to have no connection or association with Batman at all (and I can't help but wonder about that, because it seems to me the only time they're not romantically linked is when Catwoman is black, from Eartha Kitt to Halle Berry and now here- I assume that's finally gonna change with the Matt Reeves movie and Zoe Kravitz, but still...there's been a tendency to do that historically now, and that's not cool imo).
    I do believe that Ivy mentioned that Catwoman has had romantic liaisons with Batman in the past, back in season 1.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by dswynne View Post
    I do believe that Ivy mentioned that Catwoman has had romantic liaisons with Batman in the past, back in season 1.
    Yeah it was back in early season 1 where Ivy makes a joke that according to Catwoman, Batman waxes EVERYTHING.

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