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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    I love it as a film. Not my Joker, but certainly Arthur was interesting character which Phoenix handled like a pro.

    The strongest point of the film IMO is that it leaves things to your imagination or it gives you the freedom to choose what's true and what's not. For example, i feel that most of the story was a figment of Arthur's imagination and the whole story was delusions based on things that could or could not happen in his life. The narrative of the events gives you great hints about that, so it's up to you to choose what's going on.

    One thing that people tend to not notice, is that the criticism is both on rich and poor alike. Rich people and famous stars tend to ignore or not understand the difficulties of ordinary men, while we saw ordinary guys being equally cruel to Arthur. In fact,the great joke of the movie was that Arthur killed 3 douchebags that happened to be rich guys,so the angry feelings or impoverished people found a "god sent avenger".If Arthur had the gun earlier, when the kids attacked him, he would kill them and he would be seen by ordinary people and media as a crazy child killer. Phoenix's character was a time ticking bomb, it's luck and timing that made him an icon.
    On that...

    - During the discussion, Arthur points out that they were "Just kids..."

    - During the scene on the train, he actually tries to diffuse what is happening while he is having a laughing fit. He only fires when his life is actually in danger.

    While I guess he might have killed the kids, it felt like they were pointing away from that. Even later than that, he does not kill Gary in the apartment and even says that he was one of the only people who was ever good to him.
    Last edited by numberthirty; 10-05-2019 at 04:55 AM.

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    The first big hint was his first visit to the psychiatrist.She told him if he remembered why he was locked up in Arkham and show as a brief flashback of Arthur hitting his head and later this info pretty much ignored.When Arthur went to Arkham, the stuff or at least someone should have recognised him, especially considering that they search a file about his mother. Also, being abused as a child and latter not remembering, being a possible relative of Bruce or the mockery of Batman as a symbol(the clown as symbol of Gotham) and the phrase "i thought a joke *cue Bruce standing over his dead parents*but you wouldn't understand it", pretty much tells as that in the end Joker is more close to our regular version or as mad that he is delusional of his own past or remaking it. The last murder before the credits showed that difference between the Arthur of our story with th Joker of the end. The first, through luck, killed people who one way or another, wronged him. The last murder is an innocent phychiatrist before the stuff or Arkham start to chase him.
    One guy's take...

    The only reason that kill happens is so that Arthur can act out the "Pick Myself Up And Get Back In The Race" line from "That's Life" while the orderlies are chasing him.

    I think it was there strictly to foreshadow an upcoming joke.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    The first big hint was his first visit to the psychiatrist.She told him if he remembered why he was locked up in Arkham and show as a brief flashback of Arthur hitting his head and later this info pretty much ignored.When Arthur went to Arkham, the stuff or at least someone should have recognised him, especially considering that they search a file about his mother. Also, being abused as a child and latter not remembering, being a possible relative of Bruce or the mockery of Batman as a symbol(the clown as symbol of Gotham) and the phrase "i thought a joke *cue Bruce standing over his dead parents*but you wouldn't understand it", pretty much tells as that in the end Joker is more close to our regular version or as mad that he is delusional of his own past or remaking it. The last murder before the credits showed that difference between the Arthur of our story with th Joker of the end. The first, through luck, killed people who one way or another, wronged him. The last murder is an innocent phychiatrist before the stuff or Arkham start to chase him.
    What's funny is while Todd Phillips claimed that he wasn't trying to make a comic accurate movie, he ultimately did as Joker's origin is and has always been a mystery. By us not knowing what was real and what wasn't, the film in all reality may have been one of Joker's many made up stories that he has always told. Remember in TDK where joker told like 3 different stories on how he got his scars. The movie as a whole could be a single version of all the different stories that he has concocted in his mind, which imo is the best joker origin film because we came out of the film still not knowing the origin.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    On that...

    - During the discussion, Arthur points out that they were "Just kids..."

    - During the scene on the train, he actually tries to diffuse what is happening while he is having a laughing fit. He only fires when his life is actually in danger.

    While I guess he might have killed the kids, it felt like they were pointing away from that.
    There are 2 differences with the kids in comparison to the 3 rich guys:

    -Arthur still had his job and the spiral of bad events wasn't as harsh as much later.

    -He didn't have a gun.

    I still believe that if the kids tried something similar when arthur was unemployed and armed,we could have victims.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

    Previously known as Nefarius

  5. #35
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    What's funny is while Todd Phillips claimed that he wasn't trying to make a comic accurate movie, he ultimately did as Joker's origin is and has always been a mystery. By us not knowing what was real and what wasn't, the film in all reality may have been one of Joker's many made up stories that he has always told. Remember in TDK where joker told like 3 different stories on how he got his scars. The movie as a whole could be a single version of all the different stories that he has concocted in his mind, which imo is the best joker origin film because we came out of the film still not knowing the origin.
    That's the film's biggest gag. In it's core, it's probably the best representation of Joker not knowing or confusing events about his past life.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

    Previously known as Nefarius

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    That's the film's biggest gag. In it's core, it's probably the best representation of Joker not knowing or confusing events about his past life.
    Yeah I'm about 80% positive that the final joke at the end of the film was that we (the audience) went to see a Joker origin film and left not knowing the origin. Its brilliant and fitting to say the least that the first standalone film about the clown prince was a pointless joke.
    Last edited by ComicJunkie21; 10-05-2019 at 05:10 AM.

  7. #37
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    I thought of the EC horror stories about halfway through the movie. Bill Gaines and his group would come up with springboard ideas and they'd have a full board of these springboards that they would use as the starting point for a story. Before the movie there were all these ads and trailers (too much, I wish the theatre would say when the movie really starts) and one was from TIFF and had Todd Phillips saying he took this idea of Joker and then worked back from that in his mind to how such a character might arise. So the Joker we know is the springboard and the horror story is what the director and the actor interpolated from that existing property.

    The thing with the rats--and the super-rats--made me think of something in a psychology course I had at university, where there was a study that showed rats living together in a overpopulated community would start to turn on each other and attack one another. So Gotham is like this social experiment gone wrong, where so many people forced into the same space causes some of them to turn on each other, to the extent that they kill one another. Which from a scientific perspective is a way that nature has for correcting an error, because so many rats can't all exist together in such a limited environment.
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  8. #38
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    Just seen it. I think, like the shining, this film is destined to be over analyzed..

    With that in mind.... is the joker having sex with his mother???

    1 )Arthur has an overly close relationship with his mother. Bathing her.

    2)The first time we see her, she's in bed. Laying on the left side.

    3) the beds headboard is shaped to draw attention to it being a double.

    4 ) when we see Arthur laid on it, he stick to the right side.

    5 )we never see his bedroom. In fact, the apartment doesn't seem big enough for two bedrooms.

    6 ) we learn Arthur has a history of abuse that either he doesn't remember, or doesn't acknowledge as abuse.

    7 ) if we believe the adoption papers aren't a fake, then Arthur isn't penny's biological son. Is she crazy enough to think sleeping with hims okay?

  9. #39
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    The thing is, if Penny lost custody of Arthur and was in Arkham, how did she get him back? Did Arthur only move back in with her when he was grown up? But that doesn't jibe with the stories he tells about his childhood. So he's an unreliable narrator. If he really remembered his childhood and everything that happened to him, he would never trust his mother's story about Thomas Wayne.
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  10. #40
    Astonishing Member TooFlyToFail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    One thing I didn't ilke was that on the Murray show, in the moment that he was supposed to finally transform into Joker, he was still ranting about society abandoning him. He was still the angry Arthur Fleck. Granted, he shed that identity through the public killing of Murray, but I felt like he kept trying to justify the killings and harp on the self-pity, whereas I wanted him at that moment to fully adopt the persona of a comedic nihilist psychopath. Instead of angrily pointing the finger at society, I would have preferred he laughably expose their hypocricy and treat them like a joke. I think of the Joker as someone who has abandoned notions of civility and societal justice, and Fleck was still angry at seeing his expectations not met. It may seem like a subtle nit-pick, but for me it's important characterization.
    Sounds more like a nitpick. It's like you forgot that he went there to kill himself on live television. It was always a selfish motivation to get people to notice him. Narcissism has always been a big part of the Joker.

    There's also the fact that calls himself Joker to get back at Murray, who used that term to insult him earlier in the movie.

  11. #41
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Don't you guys feel that this movie has a lot of similarity with the Classic film: Network?

  12. #42
    New and Improved hulahulk's Avatar
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    Phoenix nailed the role. Compelling performance. Gritty cinematography. Normally too dark of a flick for me to go see, but since it's the Joker I made an exception. I, too was wondering about his hot neighbor's fate. Maybe Domino's luck got her and the kid out of harm's way?

    Anyhoo, I think it is a bit brutal at times with the head shots and skull bashing. I know, I know -- I see worse on the Walking Dead and in the Halloween movies. And I'm very familiar with literary Joker's exploits. Which is why it isn't necessary for me to see it on screen anymore. Maybe I'm getting old.

    The Wayne murder scene: I found myself trying to recollect each cinematic depiction of that moment.
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  13. #43
    Spectacular Member OceanStar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicJunkie21 View Post
    I'm seeing it tonight can't wait! It's funny that the mainstream critics are ripping this film now after all the good reviews from the venice film festival and the TIFF festival but the audience is loving this film and most who have seen it are calling it the best movie (not just comic book movie) of the year. Yet these same critics gave Star Wars amazing praise.

    Currently sitting at a 69 RT score and 58 Metacritic.
    Hollywood seem to have this GREAT fear of CBM, and I don't know why.
    BTW: Where's the violence??

    Anyone remembers, Do the Right Thing?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Don't you guys feel that this movie has a lot of similarity with the Classic film: Network?
    Add it to the list.... king of comedy, taxi driver, the shining, American psycho.....

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooFlyToFail View Post
    Sounds more like a nitpick. It's like you forgot that he went there to kill himself on live television. It was always a selfish motivation to get people to notice him. Narcissism has always been a big part of the Joker.

    There's also the fact that calls himself Joker to get back at Murray, who used that term to insult him earlier in the movie.
    I didn't forget, I just figured that his decision to kill others instead was going to mark a bigger break from Arthur's pain. He's still not Joker on the show IMO. The Joker we all know doesn't wallow in self pity and show vulnerability, in fact the scariest thing about him is that he doesn't seem to have any.

    And that's okay narratively, but I would have liked him to finally be Joker in that scene. The narcisism angle still works.

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