"Joker" (Spoilers!)

[GeekSmark]

For people that want to see this Joker take on a Batman, do you really see him as any sort of threat to Batman? He was never portrayed as having any sort of actual plan.

[Lightning Rider]

For people that want to see this Joker take on a Batman, do you really see him as any sort of threat to Batman? He was never portrayed as having any sort of actual plan.

A valid critique. Although I will say he showed smarts to go through with the show and set up his big moment. He also showed some cunning when chasing down the 3rd wall street murderer and stealing his mom's files in Arkham. It's not evil genius smart, but it was something that pointed to a capacity for causing trouble.

I like my Joker to have a background in criminal activity before transforming for that reason though.

[Jabare]

For people that want to see this Joker take on a Batman, do you really see him as any sort of threat to Batman? He was never portrayed as having any sort of actual plan.

You'd have to lessen Batman. they've got Batman so over the top these days. Batman would just have to be a really rich guy who knows some martial arts and is inteligent. Not the genius level martial artist with insane gadgets.

Even then tho you'd still expect that Batman to be able to dela with this JokThis was more of an avant garde character piece delving into the Joker's psyche. He never felt like Ledger's or Hmmil's Joker. He felt like a person, he had a traumatic life and is living with a mental disorder.

Ironically the other versions of the Joker don't seem psychotic after watching this version. This Joker clearly has a mental disorder, but previous interpretations markedly didn't.

"Someone who is ‘psychotic’ is experiencing symptoms of psychosis, a mental disorder, which can include auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices; visual hallucinations, where they see objects that are not truly there; or have delusional thoughts, despite evidence to show that such beliefs are incorrect."

The previous versions of Joker showed a lack of empathy, but otehrwise they were inteligent highly functioning individuals. I think technically he'd be considered a psychopath. Psycopath- "apersonality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits.
"


That's the glaring distinciton for me.

[gordonm]

I enjoyed this film but it put me in mind of Unbreakable in that it's mainly build up and then a sudden end after the character is "complete", leaving you yearning for a third act that never comes. I really hope they do a sequel (no Batman!) to see what this Joker does next.

[Midvillian1322]

A valid critique. Although I will say he showed smarts to go through with the show and set up his big moment. He also showed some cunning when chasing down the 3rd wall street murderer and stealing his mom's files in Arkham. It's not evil genius smart, but it was something that pointed to a capacity for causing trouble.

I like my Joker to have a background in criminal activity before transforming for that reason though.

Arthur was dumb and all of his "plans" were something a 10 year old could come up with. That was the biggest departure from the character for me was that Instead of a Genius Arthur intentionally not too bright. They go out of they're way too show us he cant spell for **** on top of dumb plans like snatch a file and run and get the guy to let go by slamming your head into the gate.

That said it made sense for the story they told. The mentally I'll and poor or over looked. So Arthur had a **** education probaly like most poor people. But they coulda shown he was uneducated but also capable of complex plans. But again if you want a realistic portrait of someone like arthur hes probaly not thinking too many steps ahead. Though we dont know what's actually wrong with him they never tell us. We just know hes delusional andhad anxiety issues that cause him to laugh uncontrollably. Also he has brain damage but we dont know the extent or what that caused.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I once worked in a group home for outpatients with schizophrenia, and I really got to commend this movie for its realistic take on mental illness. Other versions of the Joker generally just came across as cartoonishly evil rather than actually mentally ill. But everything about this Arthur Fleck version, I’ve seen to one degree or another is some of the clients I’ve worked with. Yeah the laughing “condition” is actually a real thing. Philips and Phoenix seriously did their homework.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The film Joker is a homage of (Taxi Driver) in a sense is about to get its adjusted for inflation gross passed by The Joker domestically. The film has $119+ million as of Tuesday. Taxi Driver has an adjusted gross of $126+ million after inflation. (It originally was $28+ million film in 1976)

[Blind Wedjat]

After seeing Joker I can say that everything about it was just overblown and overhyped.

Good enough film that feels like it's from a bygone era, but it doesn't have a particular great or unique story, direction or message. The dialogue gets awful at times and some of the writing feels nonsensical. It pulls tricks that other movies have done better, and doesn't spend enough time developing its story and characters to strengthen its themes. Rather we're treated to similar scenes that communicate the same message or extremely heavy-handed material. It does way too much telling instead of showing and Arthur's descent into madness doesn't feel genuine, but rather forced as a result.

Especially annoying that its gets away with being lazy because it has a nifty "It may not have been real!" plot device (unlike Fight Club which it borrows from). Characters and situations are underdeveloped and therefore Joker feels more shallow than it should have been.

A part of me thinks Todd Phillips' need to prove he can make a movie like Scorsese outweighed the drive to create something with true depth. This is partially evidenced in his response to the discussion around the film and how much he seemingly lifts from Taxi Driver and King of Comedy.

6-7/10 for Phoenix's undeniably killer and nuanced performance, a gorgeous and immersive look, and an unforgettable (though sometimes overbearing) soundtrack. Everything else is unfortunately derivative or lacking.

PS The death of Thomas and Martha Wayne scene completely took me out of the film and it should have been cut out.

[Immortal Weapon]

One detail that's been overlooked in the Penny Fleck discussion is that the Arkham records stated that she's been lobotomized. It's a freeze frame bonus detail but it's there.

[Jim Kelly]

I don't see how you can get mad at the movie for all the storm of controversy surrounding it. That's not on the filmmaker or the actors. They just did their jobs. The movie simply became a lightning rod for extreme opinions--in both directions. It was both hyped as a movie deserving of praise and a movie that should be tarred and feathered and run out of town for corrupting the youth. There's been just as many critics that stood up on a soapbox and denounced the movie and those that called for the Oscar to be given to it right now. You'd think it was this year's LA RÉGLE DU JEU.

I avoided the reviews as much as possible before going to see it and I put all that out of my mind when I was watching the movie, just trusting in my own reaction. And I paid attention to what my body was telling me--because I had a physiological reaction to the movie. So I don't think I was influenced by any kind of hype or bias. Nobody was telling me what to think.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

After seeing Joker I can say that everything about it was just overblown and overhyped.

Good enough film that feels like it's from a bygone era, but it doesn't have a particular great or unique story, direction or message. The dialogue gets awful at times and some of the writing feels nonsensical. It pulls tricks that other movies have done better, and doesn't spend enough time developing its story and characters to strengthen its themes. Rather we're treated to similar scenes that communicate the same message or extremely heavy-handed material. It does way too much telling instead of showing and Arthur's descent into madness doesn't feel genuine, but rather forced as a result.

Especially annoying that its gets away with being lazy because it has a nifty "It may not have been real!" plot device (unlike Fight Club which it borrows from). Characters and situations are underdeveloped and therefore Joker feels more shallow than it should have been.

A part of me thinks Todd Phillips' need to prove he can make a movie like Scorsese outweighed the drive to create something with true depth. This is partially evidenced in his response to the discussion around the film and how much he seemingly lifts from Taxi Driver and King of Comedy.

6-7/10 for Phoenix's undeniably killer and nuanced performance, a gorgeous and immersive look, and an unforgettable (though sometimes overbearing) soundtrack. Everything else is unfortunately derivative or lacking.

PS The death of Thomas and Martha Wayne scene completely took me out of the film and it should have been cut out.

I, too, thought the Batman-related stuff should have been excised and that Gotham City should not have been mentioned by name. It took me out of the movie's internal reality. The film was clearly made to look like Manhattan in the early-1980s -- that's why the Zorro movie the Waynes see is George Hamilton's "The Gay Blade."

Saying that the movie lifts from Taxi Driver and King of Comedy is now as derivative as the criticism of the movie itself being derivative, but assuming there's truth to that, I'm sure most people under 35 have never seen Taxi Driver or King of Comedy, so it won't feel derivative to them. I'm over 35, and I've still never seen Taxi Driver (though I own it on DVD and I'll get to it someday).

The point is that, compared to the movies released in, say, the last 20 years, Joker will feel very fresh and original in its look and tone to the mass audience. This is Joker's accomplishment because for all the praise TD and KOC get, they are still basically cult films. If nothing else, Joker gets points for bringing mass popularity to the urban neo-noir genre.

I'm not saying your critcisms are unfounded because I had some of the same criticisms myself, but for me, the movie ends up being a big win for DC, Warner Bros, and us as comics fans who are getting a great variety of comics-based movies. Joker is being taken seriously by movie buffs and that's a great thing. The fact that it's raking in the cash is even better because now we will get more of these kinds of serious CBMs in the future instead of all-theme-park-all-the-time.

I would be very surprised if Phoenix doesn't get a best actor nomination at the Oscars. If he wins that would really put the final nail in the coffin of those who dismiss CBMs as not having artistic merit.

[HUTHAIFA]

I feel like the messages in this movie were pretty strong


Mentally unstable people getting access to guns. He didn't even have to buy it. No background check would have worked.

People need to rely on celebrity for leadership and inspiration. Penny thought Thomas would be a savior. The mob making the Joker a savior.

The completely different reality that someone that is mentally ill lives in. Basically creating an imaginary friend for validation.

I saw this film turning Gotham into the birthplace for costumed villainy. I can see this place creating people like Riddler, Penquin, and the rest of Batman's rogues.

I also can Bruce being the man to fulfill Thomas promise of making Gotham better.

[Jim Kelly]

I think that framing the story as a legend of the Dark Knight was a way to deliver the messages in the movie without assaulting the audience with a true setting. If it had been set in the real New York of 1981 and had real name characters from that time, then it would be too easy for critics to say that it was attacking this political side or that social movement. In the end, the movie still didn't escape that charge--even though it's set in a Batman world and in the past--people want to be offended by it for what they see as a critique of their own world and time.

I wrestled with myself over whether the Batman stuff fit or not, but in the end I decided it does because it's another Brechtian device in the movie. If the point of the movie was to lure you into a fantasy and never disturb your singular view of the story, then maybe these clanging bits should have been taken out--but the movie is trying to wake you up from the narrative dream. So in that Brecht style anything that shakes up the audience is allowed.

[Blind Wedjat]

I don't see how you can get mad at the movie for all the storm of controversy surrounding it. That's not on the filmmaker or the actors. They just did their jobs. The movie simply became a lightning rod for extreme opinions--in both directions. It was both hyped as a movie deserving of praise and a movie that should be tarred and feathered and run out of town for corrupting the youth. There's been just as many critics that stood up on a soapbox and denounced the movie and those that called for the Oscar to be given to it right now. You'd think it was this year's LA RÉGLE DU JEU.

I avoided the reviews as much as possible before going to see it and I put all that out of my mind when I was watching the movie, just trusting in my own reaction. And I paid attention to what my body was telling me--because I had a physiological reaction to the movie. So I don't think I was influenced by any kind of hype or bias. Nobody was telling me what to think.

I'm not mad at Joker for the controversy. I'm mad at everyone (the media especially) for making it a big deal, and I guess mad at myself for expecting a lot more. It just felt like it pulled its punches. I didn't really have a strong reaction to how the events unfolded at the end because I don't think I felt the tension being built up to that breaking point.

I, too, thought the Batman-related stuff should have been excised and that Gotham City should not have been mentioned by name. It took me out of the movie's internal reality. The film was clearly made to look like Manhattan in the early-1980s -- that's why the Zorro movie the Waynes see is George Hamilton's "The Gay Blade."

Saying that the movie lifts from Taxi Driver and King of Comedy is now as derivative as the criticism of the movie itself being derivative, but assuming there's truth to that, I'm sure most people under 35 have never seen Taxi Driver or King of Comedy, so it won't feel derivative to them. I'm over 35, and I've still never seen Taxi Driver (though I own it on DVD and I'll get to it someday).

The point is that, compared to the movies released in, say, the last 20 years, Joker will feel very fresh and original in its look and tone to the mass audience. This is Joker's accomplishment because for all the praise TD and KOC get, they are still basically cult films. If nothing else, Joker gets points for bringing mass popularity to the urban neo-noir genre.

I'm not saying your critcisms are unfounded because I had some of the same criticisms myself, but for me, the movie ends up being a big win for DC, Warner Bros, and us as comics fans who are getting a great variety of comics-based movies. Joker is being taken seriously by movie buffs and that's a great thing. The fact that it's raking in the cash is even better because now we will get more of these kinds of serious CBMs in the future instead of all-theme-park-all-the-time.

I would be very surprised if Phoenix doesn't get a best actor nomination at the Oscars. If he wins that would really put the final nail in the coffin of those who dismiss CBMs as not having artistic merit.

I mean to bring up those films in particular because they're the ones everyone brings up. I was implying that I haven't seen them as well. Having watched both Mindhunter and Mr Robot very recently (as well as Hannibal) I felt I'd seen things handle the descent to madness and the state of mind of a killer a lot better than Joker did. I was expecting something knew and bold in this regard but I didn't get it.

I feel like the messages in this movie were pretty strong


Mentally unstable people getting access to guns. He didn't even have to buy it. No background check would have worked.

People need to rely on celebrity for leadership and inspiration. Penny thought Thomas would be a savior. The mob making the Joker a savior.

The completely different reality that someone that is mentally ill lives in. Basically creating an imaginary friend for validation.

I saw this film turning Gotham into the birthplace for costumed villainy. I can see this place creating people like Riddler, Penquin, and the rest of Batman's rogues.

I also can Bruce being the man to fulfill Thomas promise of making Gotham better.

I think most of these were handled quite alright in the film but I feel as though it could have been better.

Take the delusions for example. I didn't like the thing with because I didn't think it was handled well. Immediately we find out that Arthur does have delusions when he and Penny watch the Murray Franklin show in the very beginning. So the thing with Sophie is painfully obvious (and the dialogue doesn't help either). And then we get that sequence of showing how she wasn't real like in Fight Club but it doesn't have the same effect because the twist is easily telegraphed and doesn't say anything that hasn't been said already. I found it pointless to be honest. It would have been better if the film didn't try to have it as a twist, and had other characters recognise that Arthur was talking to himself. Let's actually see him start to lose his mind and how other characters respond to that.

I didn't mean to say it doesn't have a clear message. Clearly it's about the power of recognition and what it feels like to be neglected by society. I get that. But the way the script is structured I don't think it allows this message to play out as well as it should have. Like that I said, there's a lot of telling and not showing. We're told that Gotham is a crazy place to live in but we don't really see why. Everything that is said to be wrong with Gotham happens to Arthur and Arthur only during the film. It doesn't feel like a city wide problem. It doesn't feel like everyone is down in the dumps. Likewise we're told there's an anti-rich sentiment but we don't see why. Why do people hate the rich so much? Why do people hate Thomas Wayne so much? How do other poor people aside from Arthur feel neglected by the rich and how have they been mistreated? This is why the riots didn't feel genuine to me because I couldn't buy it. Like, on the Murray Franklin show Arthur says that everyone screams at each other but he's the only one that does that. We don't really get to feel this at all.

[Midvillian1322]

I once worked in a group home for outpatients with schizophrenia, and I really got to commend this movie for its realistic take on mental illness. Other versions of the Joker generally just came across as cartoonishly evil rather than actually mentally ill. But everything about this Arthur Fleck version, I’ve seen to one degree or another is some of the clients I’ve worked with. Yeah the laughing “condition” is actually a real thing. Philips and Phoenix seriously did their homework.

I appreciate that from a story telling perspective. It does feel rather real but it also turns it's back on everything that makes the Joker Joker. That's why I'm so conflicted with this movie. The name definitely helped sale tickets but I'm sure I'm not alone in nerdom of feeling like it betrays everything that makes Joker the biggest villian in Comics and maybe all of Fiction. Even if you take away personality and break it down to what Joker represents as a agent of Choas. Arthur has no plans at all the Choas is just a byproduct. You could argue in the end after he kills the shrink if that's even real that hes now become the Joker from the comics but we arent shown that are lead to believe that at all. Except for the fact that the Shrink is innocent so that means he probaly shredded what was left of his Empathy and good.

I enjoy reimagining where they take the core traits that makes a characters unique and then put that character in awhole new situation then what we are use to. Joker didnt keep anything except the clown motif and laugh. And severely changed the clown look and the meaning of the laugh.


All that said the movie is really good. Phoenix should be a no brainers for the Oscar. I think the directing and writing throughout the movie fluctuated between great and just okay so I wouldnt award Phillip's but he did a really good job give his past movies. But on par with Phoenixs performance is the cinematography. This movie is shot in such a beautiful way so I see it being in the running for an oscar there. Ad Astra and once up a time in Hollywood were also beautiful looking movies. Though Ad Astra was boring as ****.