"Joker" (Spoilers!)

[Ronin705]

This was alright, with a little touch of over-hyped af

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The next film WB plans....

[Jim Kelly]

The second weekend drop was pretty good for JOKER. I can't help but wonder how much it would make if it could be released in China. Do you think WB should do a PG-13 cut of a HO HO JOKER for the Christmas season, so they can release it in China, like with ONCE UPON A DEADPOOL?

[bat39]

Saw this movie over a week ago and haven't really written about it yet. But its had enough time to percolate in my mind, so here goes...

So there a meme that was going around comparing Nicholson and Phoenix's Jokers which basically went like this - 1989: Joker is dropped into a vat of acid. 2019: Joker is dropped into society.

Which I think sums up the film perfectly. Its not really a story about politics, or mental illness, or the media, or class warfare. Its really a story about how a wide range of factors in a dysfunctional society affect an already vulnerable mind, causing it to snap. You have your "multiple choice Joker origin" right here - childhood abuse? income inequality? media manipulation? What was it that really led to Arthur Fleck becoming the Joker? None of it? ALL of it?

People are trying hard to impute political motives to the film, but I think Todd Phillips didn't really have a 'message' with this film - beyond the fact that the world is full of cr#p, and it can turn ordinary people into monsters. Which is something we sadly see every single day, one way or another.

The cinematography and set design was simply gorgeous. The performances were brilliant. Joaquin Phoenix definitely deserves a Best Actor at the Oscars (and I doubt its an exaggeration to say that this movie should at least get a Best Picture nomination).

One thing which surprised me was just how much the wider Batman mythos left their mark on this film! Considering all the talk about this being a 'standalone' completely divorced from the DC Universe, this film was virtually a stealth Batman prequel - I mean, we literally had Thomas and Martha Wayne being gunned down at the end, and Bruce standing over their bodies! Incidentially, having them killed by someone inspired by the Joker was a nice nod to Burton's film.

The TV studio climax was brilliant and was also probably a nod to The Dark Knight Returns. In fact, I'd argue that Phillips' film has a lot in common with DKR...taking a comic-book concept and putting it into a grittier and more realitic setting, replete with all the socio-cultural and political implications that would follow from such a character existing in the 'real world'.

On the whole, as far as 'comic-book movies' go, its truly a masterpiece. I'd still rate Heath Ledger's performance as the best realization of the comic-book character known as the Joker on-screen...but Phoenix's Arthur Fleck is definitely the best realization of what a real "Joker" would be like.

[Wildling]

The second weekend drop was pretty good for JOKER. I can't help but wonder how much it would make if it could be released in China. Do you think WB should do a PG-13 cut of a HO HO JOKER for the Christmas season, so they can release it in China, like with ONCE UPON A DEADPOOL?

A stand up, talking host version maybe?

But Warner really sent in the money collecting clowns this year. Joker and It Chapter Two are making a billion clownbux between the two any day now, without any China help.

[ABH]

It was interesting, even good in some parts, but not great. Joaquin was great throughout, but the movie itself meandered for a bit, I felt.

It’s almost a shame that Joaquin didn’t get the opportunity to be the Joker in an actual Batman movie — that would have been something.

[Hypestyle]

... severely depressing movie. performances from the main actors are well-acted, but sequences throughout the film are indefensible.
I found the police representatives unusually inept, especially considering the apparent lead that Arthur had a gun at the children's ward.
empty revolution rhetoric without taking responsibility for it. chaos for chaos' sake.

[tabo61]

My favorite scene was him watching the riots from the back of the police car after he was arrested for that shooting. Reminded me of that line from The Dark Knight " watch the world burn".

[Nobody]

Lots of layers and angles in the film. Was he imagining the whole thing, only parts, or afterwards was it the only time he was in sync with reality? Hard to say. This'll be talked about for a while.

I hear a lot of social politics being thrown at the movie, but I'd say most is inaccurate. Like "incel"/loner culture, etc. I feel it's the opposite, actually. While Joker, I feel, is just a representation of the madness, you have to remember the director's point of view. He sees PC culture/"SJW" stuff as a nuisance to comedy, a genre he's renowned for, by censoring and getting pulled into social politics unnecessarily. Which can ruin humor. So with that, it'd seem he's knocking all of that. Rethinking the plot points, I'd say it's anti-PC police. I mean, Joker inspired people that were anti-1%, anti-authority, etc. They're labeled as protesting, but they're really rioting. Like we see in the news.

In the film, Arthur has trouble picking up on humor, especially punchlines. He's saying humor is subjective, which is true, but standup is attacked a whole lot when it comes to the politically correct crowd. Fleck stands up there all wholesome, with nothing to say, really. And it'd seem the director was making a point of using the clown angle to narrate this. Clowns are an archaic, unfunny relic of comedy's past. They're slapstick and one-note. And nowadays they're unsettling, if not terrifying. So we see all those using the clown masks to represent their woes. This could be the director/writer assuaging that those like Antifa, Guy Fawkes masked protesters, and others are like these clowns.

Arthur killing those three affluent yuppies in the subway is reminiscent of an actual happening in New York where a man shot 4 young teens for, allegedly, harassing/threatening him. Which also gained praise from many in NYC, and those across the country. As well as some jeers in place of the cheers, but still. I'm sure it was an inspiration for the scene and plot point. [See: Bernhard Goetz] Interesting story.

Taxi Driver being an influence, as well. A man actually tried to kill the president because he got it in his head that Jodie Foster, confusing her with the character she was playing, would love him for it.

Many news sites have made note of the female supporting tending to be a prominent antithesis for our character in many scenes, and now I can't not notice. But the first social worker could've simply been a representation of how the system screws all of us, even if you work for the system. Despite Fleck saying he's the only one with problems. As well as mentioning that all he has are negative thoughts, pointing at the fact that SJWs always seem to focus and cynically look for negative things, like racism, sexism, hardships... I don't really feel her being black has anything to do with anything, just that she's a general representation. Though later in the film, we do see a full circle representation of a similar woman; a short, petite, middle-aged black woman as his counselor. Maybe showing that he may not have left the Arkham at all, playing into the delusions of grandeur that his character very much so has been seen doing earlier in the film. Like with the girl-next-door.

Speaking of the single mother, the Jodie Foster of the film, that he has a crush on, I feel this could be taken as the incel/loner/PUA culture. But honestly, he never really gets too whiny about women. He definitely hated his mother, though. Will say, that maybe this is a take on "Nice Guy" syndrome, playing to women but it's not really affective and is, of course, shady. Though in their heads, and Joker's, they're total lady-killers. Trying his best to be supportive and loving, but her not needing his help. Though it never happened. Just in his head. Just like his mother's when it came to her relationship with Thomas Wayne. And even her relationship with her son.

"He seemed like such a happy boy. Always laughing." Or something akin. I may be misremembering the exact like.

The abuse Arthur took from his mother, as well as the system in place for that to happen, could be taken as upbringing for people in real life. Like parents telling their kids they're so special, to the point where they deride others in their future. Entitled, and spoiled. Stereotypical, sure, but it's theatre for story's sake. And also parents unconditional love ignoring clear problems. The harping on millennials also not leaving the home because column A, column B of overbearing parents and the kids not knowing how to live outside of the home and the economy and government screwing our and future generations royally.

While it is a cynical bite from the writer and director, it is an interesting take.

[Pinsir]

... severely depressing movie. performances from the main actors are well-acted, but sequences throughout the film are indefensible.
I found the police representatives unusually inept, especially considering the apparent lead that Arthur had a gun at the children's ward.empty revolution rhetoric without taking responsibility for it. chaos for chaos' sake.

Arthur accuses them of placing his mother in the hospital. At that moment he had a moral advantage over him.

The police aren't actually inept in this film at all. They track down Arthur without any evidence linking Arthur to the murder by canvassing professional clowns. Not to mention they track him down during the third act and its obvious from their mannerism that they are completely oblivious to the fact that they murdered someone.

It takes time for criminals to be brought to justice and in the film and the film makes it clear that a witness was saying the murderer wore a mask.

[Ulysses]

It's great but some of the plot pacing is off.

[Ramsay Snow]

Lots of layers and angles in the film. Was he imagining the whole thing, only parts, or afterwards was it the only time he was in sync with reality? Hard to say. This'll be talked about for a while.

I hear a lot of social politics being thrown at the movie, but I'd say most is inaccurate. Like "incel"/loner culture, etc. I feel it's the opposite, actually. While Joker, I feel, is just a representation of the madness, you have to remember the director's point of view. He sees PC culture/"SJW" stuff as a nuisance to comedy, a genre he's renowned for, by censoring and getting pulled into social politics unnecessarily. Which can ruin humor. So with that, it'd seem he's knocking all of that. Rethinking the plot points, I'd say it's anti-PC police. I mean, Joker inspired people that were anti-1%, anti-authority, etc. They're labeled as protesting, but they're really rioting. Like we see in the news.

In the film, Arthur has trouble picking up on humor, especially punchlines. He's saying humor is subjective, which is true, but standup is attacked a whole lot when it comes to the politically correct crowd. Fleck stands up there all wholesome, with nothing to say, really. And it'd seem the director was making a point of using the clown angle to narrate this. Clowns are an archaic, unfunny relic of comedy's past. They're slapstick and one-note. And nowadays they're unsettling, if not terrifying. So we see all those using the clown masks to represent their woes. This could be the director/writer assuaging that those like Antifa, Guy Fawkes masked protesters, and others are like these clowns.

Arthur killing those three affluent yuppies in the subway is reminiscent of an actual happening in New York where a man shot 4 young teens for, allegedly, harassing/threatening him. Which also gained praise from many in NYC, and those across the country. As well as some jeers in place of the cheers, but still. I'm sure it was an inspiration for the scene and plot point. [See: Bernhard Goetz] Interesting story.

Taxi Driver being an influence, as well. A man actually tried to kill the president because he got it in his head that Jodie Foster, confusing her with the character she was playing, would love him for it.

Many news sites have made note of the female supporting tending to be a prominent antithesis for our character in many scenes, and now I can't not notice. But the first social worker could've simply been a representation of how the system screws all of us, even if you work for the system. Despite Fleck saying he's the only one with problems. As well as mentioning that all he has are negative thoughts, pointing at the fact that SJWs always seem to focus and cynically look for negative things, like racism, sexism, hardships... I don't really feel her being black has anything to do with anything, just that she's a general representation. Though later in the film, we do see a full circle representation of a similar woman; a short, petite, middle-aged black woman as his counselor. Maybe showing that he may not have left the Arkham at all, playing into the delusions of grandeur that his character very much so has been seen doing earlier in the film. Like with the girl-next-door.

Speaking of the single mother, the Jodie Foster of the film, that he has a crush on, I feel this could be taken as the incel/loner/PUA culture. But honestly, he never really gets too whiny about women. He definitely hated his mother, though. Will say, that maybe this is a take on "Nice Guy" syndrome, playing to women but it's not really affective and is, of course, shady. Though in their heads, and Joker's, they're total lady-killers. Trying his best to be supportive and loving, but her not needing his help. Though it never happened. Just in his head. Just like his mother's when it came to her relationship with Thomas Wayne. And even her relationship with her son.

"He seemed like such a happy boy. Always laughing." Or something akin. I may be misremembering the exact like.

The abuse Arthur took from his mother, as well as the system in place for that to happen, could be taken as upbringing for people in real life. Like parents telling their kids they're so special, to the point where they deride others in their future. Entitled, and spoiled. Stereotypical, sure, but it's theatre for story's sake. And also parents unconditional love ignoring clear problems. The harping on millennials also not leaving the home because column A, column B of overbearing parents and the kids not knowing how to live outside of the home and the economy and government screwing our and future generations royally.

While it is a cynical bite from the writer and director, it is an interesting take.

Excellent post.

[Ulysses]

@nobody

You may like Jonathan Pageau's interpretation of the film. Just youtube search Jonathan Pageau Joker review.

[stargazer01]

I liked it quite a bit. this is not my kind of movie to be honest, but it was entertaining.

Some things happened like I thought, but the last third of the film was unexpected, maybe because I didn't know what to expect or how connected this would be to the Batman mythos, but I liked it a lot. When he shot the guy on camera, wow, my jaw dropped. The first part of the film was so depressing, though, but it got a lot better. It was an slow burn with a very satisfying ending.

I have questions.. So his mom always lied to him or she was just crazy?

Also, Do you guys think he was crazy or not so much? I think he knew what he was doing, but he felt he was justified to kill those "bad people."

So is this Joker a bad guy or what? I find it interesting that it's not an easy answer.

[Vakanai]

I liked it quite a bit. this is not my kind of movie to be honest, but it was entertaining.

Some things happened like I thought, but the last third of the film was unexpected, maybe because I didn't know what to expect or how connected this would be to the Batman mythos, but I liked it a lot. When he shot the guy on camera, wow, my jaw dropped. The first part of the film was so depressing, though, but it got a lot better. It was an slow burn with a very satisfying ending.

I have questions.. So his mom always lied to him or she was just crazy?

Also, Do you guys think he was crazy or not so much? I think he knew what he was doing, but he felt he was justified to kill those "bad people."

So is this Joker a bad guy or what? I find it interesting that it's not an easy answer.

Crazy. I mean he did hallucinate that whole relationship with that one chick.