"Joker" (Spoilers!)

[Midvillian1322]

Saw it last night. Man Phoenix was amazing in this movie. And the ugly trash feeled Gotham was filmed in such a beautiful way. I'm in the Camp that the movie clearly establishes when something isnt real except for the ending with the Psychiatrist.

All that said making this a movie about Joker hurt it over all for me. Theres certain expectations you have with a chatacter like Joker. I mean Joker is brilliant and Hilarious. Arthur is dumb and only funny things he does are on accident and is us laughing at him not with him. Then he has this poignant speech about comedy being subjective. So I'm torn on this movie cause if it wasnt about Joker I'd enjoy it even more. I mean if they made a brilliant movie about Batman but they changed everything about Batman I'd feel the same way. It's tough man. Aslo we never got Phoenix trying to be Joker not even at the very end he was still very emotional. Maybe after the scene with the shrink he was gonna leave all that behind but they are never gonna make a sequel so we will never know. Oy I'm so conflicted because I think it's such a good movie but my brain cant help but tear apart all the ways this character is nothing like Joker. And as far as Arthur being dumb I get why they did It for the story. Alot of whats dumb about him is he cant spell for ****. And his social awkwardness gives off a low EQ. That could have been done to hit home how bad Gotham is for the poor and like alot of Urban Areas the public schools are just awful. So my rational brain gets the choices they make but my fanboy brain is a whiney bitch and is yelling but Joker is a genius. If he does soemthing dumb its intentional

Also I think Phoenixs performance and the cinematography are both oscar level. But they have a very subtle moment where you realize Zaza doesnt even know arthur but then the director didnt have enough confidence that the audience wasnt stupid and then has flashbacks that spell it out for you.


Anyway I went on about that too long. Makes it seem like I didn't love the movie. Which I did love. If they coulda done it with a more faithful Joker i woulda just loved it even more.

[Jim Kelly]

As I said earlier, the movie doesn't mediate Arthur''s perspective by giving another perspective. A lot of movies would try to put the action in a context, where you could withdraw to this moral perspective. Instead we're getting the movie unfiltered from the character's perspective. But we're moral human beings--most of us--we don't need someone to tell us this is wrong, in the movie--we can see that for ourselves. I don't need someone holding my hand and assuring me of what are the correct values. I know those values, so I know that those actions are wrong. Just like in CRIME AND PUNISHMENT, I know that Raskolnikov is wrong--I don't need the author to tell me that.

I feel like some people want a movie that spoon feeds them and keeps breaking from the action to give us a moral message, so we don't somehow mistake the director's intention as advocating for an anarchic reaction to the world's ills. But I see the director respecting our intelligence and knowing that, if we're at all understanding, we should be able to work that out for ourselves what is right and wrong.

It doesn't matter if the victims "deserved it"--according to the tropes of slasher movies--we know that committing these kind of actions is absolutely wrong. There is no moral grey area.

[Midvillian1322]

I want to know 2 things clear.

Did Penny really have an affair with Thomas?

If so, did it cause her mental illness?

No I think she was suppose to be crazy all along and made all of it up. Thomas was definetly a bit harsh with his choice of words but I never got any vibe he wasnt a good man and didnt really wanna help people.

Also why the hell was Bruce emotionaly retarded before his parents died? I mean I always thought of him as being a normal kid before his parent are murdered in front of him. But boy Bruce seemed almost autistic in his behavior and lack if emotion. Doesnt matter hes in like 2mins of the movie. Just weird thinking Bruce was a mood joyless **** from birth.

[Slowpokeking]

No I think she was suppose to be crazy all along and made all of it up. Thomas was definetly a bit harsh with his choice of words but I never got any vibe he wasnt a good man and didnt really wanna help people.

Also why the hell was Bruce emotionaly retarded before his parents died? I mean I always thought of him as being a normal kid before his parent are murdered in front of him. But boy Bruce seemed almost autistic in his behavior and lack if emotion. Doesnt matter hes in like 2mins of the movie. Just weird thinking Bruce was a mood joyless **** from birth.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...kstory-1245261

What was the relationship in your mind between Thomas Wayne and Arthur’s mother?

I asked Todd how Thomas Wayne would’ve know Arthur’s mother. The backstory was that Arthur’s mother had worked for Thomas in his home, and she was a beautiful woman who Thomas was attracted to and it led to a physical relationship. Later in life, she’s in and out of mental institutions. And in my mind, Thomas Wayne put her there.

What I like about the film is that it’s about real people with real faults who make mistakes. Some are done out of protection, like moving Arthur and his mother out of the picture.

[Midvillian1322]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...kstory-1245261

What was the relationship in your mind between Thomas Wayne and Arthur’s mother?

I asked Todd how Thomas Wayne would’ve know Arthur’s mother. The backstory was that Arthur’s mother had worked for Thomas in his home, and she was a beautiful woman who Thomas was attracted to and it led to a physical relationship. Later in life, she’s in and out of mental institutions. And in my mind, Thomas Wayne put her there.

What I like about the film is that it’s about real people with real faults who make mistakes. Some are done out of protection, like moving Arthur and his mother out of the picture.

Well I didnt see any of that in the film. So hes claiming that Thomas to protect himself put Penny in arkham? Does that mean he fabricated all the other **** then? Like Arthur being adopted and her being insane and letting people abuse him? Or is the actor just implying she was an unstable women and after a short affair the rejection sent her over the deep end mentally?

[Slowpokeking]

Well I didnt see any of that in the film. So hes claiming that Thomas to protect himself put Penny in arkham? Does that mean he fabricated all the other **** then? Like Arthur being adopted and her being insane and letting people abuse him? Or is the actor just implying she was an unstable women and after a short affair the rejection sent her over the deep end mentally?

I think it might went both way.

He and Penny did have affair but due to they could not be together, Penny went crazy, abused the child and was sent to the hospital by Thomas.

There is something weird, if Penny indeed allowed Arthur to be abused by her boyfriend and was so mentally unstable, how was she able to get her son back to custody at all?

[tabo61]

Magnificent peformance by Phoenix and fantastic movie. That music score for the movie is awesome.

[Midvillian1322]

I think it might went both way.

He and Penny did have affair but due to they could not be together, Penny went crazy, abused the child and was sent to the hospital by Thomas.

There is something weird, if Penny indeed allowed Arthur to be abused by her boyfriend and was so mentally unstable, how was she able to get her son back to custody at all?

There was a few things like that. How did she ever adopt a kid let alone get him back after what happened. Why the hell was someone recording a open Mic night with a camera that recorded in great quality just so they can send it Murray. I mean I assume it's the early 80s. So yea that recording would have been tough and also in 80s were they letting people come into studios for huge show recordings without checking them for weapons? I mean maybe since Arthur was a guest you can say maybe the audience only has to go through security. But really none of that effected the movies quality for me at all so I dont wanna Harp too much about it.

[Tazirai]

I love it as a film. Not my Joker, but certainly Arthur was interesting character which Phoenix handled like a pro.

The strongest point of the film IMO is that it leaves things to your imagination or it gives you the freedom to choose what's true and what's not. For example, i feel that most of the story was a figment of Arthur's imagination and the whole story was delusions based on things that could or could not happen in his life. The narrative of the events gives you great hints about that, so it's up to you to choose what's going on.

One thing that people tend to not notice, is that the criticism is both on rich and poor alike. Rich people and famous stars tend to ignore or not understand the difficulties of ordinary men, while we saw ordinary guys being equally cruel to Arthur. In fact,the great joke of the movie was that Arthur killed 3 douchebags that happened to be rich guys,so the angry feelings or impoverished people found a "god sent avenger".If Arthur had the gun earlier, when the kids attacked him, he would kill them and he would be seen by ordinary people and media as a crazy child killer. Phoenix's character was a time ticking bomb, it's luck and timing that made him an icon.

Agree with a lot of this.

It's the class warfare that has existed for centuries. Rich have poor want. But Poor can also be assholes to other poor. While Rich are assholes to everybody, and sometimes without trying to be assholes.

[Slowpokeking]

There was a few things like that. How did she ever adopt a kid let alone get him back after what happened. Why the hell was someone recording a open Mic night with a camera that recorded in great quality just so they can send it Murray. I mean I assume it's the early 80s. So yea that recording would have been tough and also in 80s were they letting people come into studios for huge show recordings without checking them for weapons? I mean maybe since Arthur was a guest you can say maybe the audience only has to go through security. But really none of that effected the movies quality for me at all so I dont wanna Harp too much about it.

Also based on Penny and Arthur's relationship and Arthur being a unstable but overall good guy in the beginning of the movie, it's not likely he was raised by such a mad woman in the file.

[numberthirty]

Also based on Penny and Arthur's relationship and Arthur being a unstable but overall good guy in the beginning of the movie, it's not likely he was raised by such a mad woman in the file.

They have an "Out" there.

[ilovelocust]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...kstory-1245261

What was the relationship in your mind between Thomas Wayne and Arthur’s mother?

I asked Todd how Thomas Wayne would’ve know Arthur’s mother. The backstory was that Arthur’s mother had worked for Thomas in his home, and she was a beautiful woman who Thomas was attracted to and it led to a physical relationship. Later in life, she’s in and out of mental institutions. And in my mind, Thomas Wayne put her there.

What I like about the film is that it’s about real people with real faults who make mistakes. Some are done out of protection, like moving Arthur and his mother out of the picture.

The actor's interpretation doesn't match the facts shown in the film. We know through the newspaper clippings that Thomas Wayne isn't the reason she was in that asylum. She got caught handcuffing her son to a radiator and letting her boyfriend beat on him until he had brain damage.

Also, her version of history doesn't make sense. She says she was forced to sign a NDA. NDA's only work if you give someone enough money that coming forward and losing that money would be a big enough loss to not be worth it. So she's saying he gave her enough money to shut her up, and then immediately turned around and forged adoption paperwork (which had to be done before the abuse scandal because the first day headlines were about adopted house of horrors). Why would he risk the chances of getting caught that come along with the second one, if the first one was working? Also her elderly belief that he's a good man that will come through for her and her son, doesn't match with the he forced me to sign a NDA, then forged adoption papers, and then got me committed person.

[ilovelocust]

Also based on Penny and Arthur's relationship and Arthur being a unstable but overall good guy in the beginning of the movie, it's not likely he was raised by such a mad woman in the file.

A lot of Arthur's issues reflect the ones we're shown Penny as having though. He believed he was in a relationship with Sophie. She believed she was in a relationship with Thomas Wayne. His psychiatrist asks if he remembers why he was in the asylum, and he's in denial/rewriting history. Her psychiatrist asks why she was in the asylum, and she goes into denial about the abuse her son suffered and rewrites history. Arthur's various issues make a lot more sense when viewed in the light of Penny.

[Slowpokeking]

The actor's interpretation doesn't match the facts shown in the film. We know through the newspaper clippings that Thomas Wayne isn't the reason she was in that asylum. She got caught handcuffing her son to a radiator and letting her boyfriend beat on him until he had brain damage.

Also, her version of history doesn't make sense. She says she was forced to sign a NDA. NDA's only work if you give someone enough money that coming forward and losing that money would be a big enough loss to not be worth it. So she's saying he gave her enough money to shut her up, and then immediately turned around and forged adoption paperwork (which had to be done before the abuse scandal because the first day headlines were about adopted house of horrors). Why would he risk the chances of getting caught that come along with the second one, if the first one was working? Also her elderly belief that he's a good man that will come through for her and her son, doesn't match with the he forced me to sign a NDA, then forged adoption papers, and then got me committed person.

Todd confirmed their affair. Her mental issue could be caused by the broken relationship.

Because this is Gotham, Thomas is the richest and most powerful man, why is it difficult for him to do so? He probably found Penny was not pleased with the NDA so he tried another approach. A lot of the rich jerks are like that, they treat the poor like **** which is why Gotham become a terrible place.

A lot of Arthur's issues reflect the ones we're shown Penny as having though. He believed he was in a relationship with Sophie. She believed she was in a relationship with Thomas Wayne. His psychiatrist asks if he remembers why he was in the asylum, and he's in denial/rewriting history. Her psychiatrist asks why she was in the asylum, and she goes into denial about the abuse her son suffered and rewrites history. Arthur's various issues make a lot more sense when viewed in the light of Penny.

You are contradicting yourself. If Arthur is not Penny's biological child, why would these issue be carried to him? It's obvious that his mental issue was caused by the abuse when he was a baby.

And Penny indeed was in a relationship with Thomas, it's not her imagination.

[Midvillian1322]

Also based on Penny and Arthur's relationship and Arthur being a unstable but overall good guy in the beginning of the movie, it's not likely he was raised by such a mad woman in the file.

We dont see her do anything bad except tell Arthue he isnt funny. Which is 100% true. So maybe after getting treatment she got better but still held the revisionist history in her head to be true. Her and Arthur could have both blocked out all the horrible **** from when he was child and went on with her being a better mother. Problem is the damage was done.