Clone Saga - most cringeworthy moments?

[Blanks]

For me it was killing Ben. After issue 75, I dropped Spider-Man in its entirely until I picked Ultimate Spider-Man. As for 616, i didn’t pick up another issue until his unmasking in Civil War.

[shooshoomanjoe]

I actually enjoyed the entire clone saga. I don't get the hate from the Spidey slap because it was Peter swinging his arm and MJ being in the wrong place/time. He didn't intentionally smack her like Pym did with Jan.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't get the hate from the Spidey slap because it was Peter swinging his arm and MJ being in the wrong place/time. He didn't intentionally smack her like Pym did with Jan.

And unlike Hank (who people forget brutally told Janet to pick herself up and then follow his lame plan), Peter immediately reacted in shock and backed down...so yeah it's not the same thing.

But it's still an ugly and ridiculous moment. A dude with super-strength smacks his pregnant wife, mother of his child, and all. That's just ugly to see. The Hank thing was at least an important plot point whose consequences were addressed, followed through and remained lasting, but this is just cheap melodrama using a gratuitous real-world issue to shade what is basically a dumb-as-rocks comic idea.

I mean what was the intent there -- Peter's the clone because the real Peter wouldn't do this? No because MJ doesn't drop Clone-Peter and go with Ben Reilly. It's just pointless.

[Desmark]

Did Peter ever apologize for his actions? I don't recall him doing so. I think he rarely refers to/remembers those dark moments like him killing Charlie who committed suicide by spider punch though I vaguely remember that the Spider Punch was M mentioned lately somewhere.

[Celgress]

And unlike Hank (who people forget brutally told Janet to pick herself up and then follow his lame plan), Peter immediately reacted in shock and backed down...so yeah it's not the same thing.

But it's still an ugly and ridiculous moment. A dude with super-strength smacks his pregnant wife, mother of his child, and all. That's just ugly to see...

Exactly, to answer the other user the problem is that domestic abuse (especially male on female incidents) was and still is a real problem in America and beyond. The infamous scene touched a raw nerve with many people. It might have been perceived differently if both characters involved have super strength rather than one being a civilian and pregnant to boot. However, I think even if MJ had powers of her own at the time I can't see many people being a fan of the incident. It is simply cringe-worthy on too many levels.

[Dr. Skeleton]

It happened in a bad poorly-written story with a terrible concept that felt out of character and out of synch with the style and theme of the title. For the same reason Sins' Past is easy to discount. It's not a very well written story so nothing sticks. So it's easy to discount it. The Clone Saga is inherently anti-thetical to the style and nature of Spider-Man being this grounded low-end science fiction nature of the stories. The idea of Ben being the clone was ridiculous to pull off as a con with the readers which even editorial never believed in.

Compared to when Hank Pym slapped Janet, it happened in a very well-written story, the concept and theme was logically consistent to the pre-established character of Hank and Janet and the nature of their relationship, and it's in synch to Hank Pym's overall story, as being the great f--k up of the Marvel Universe, the f--k up before whom all f--k ups are measured and found redeeming and gratified when placed against.

Exactly. Even though Hank paid for his actions, fans still wanna demonize him. I was just a kid when I had that comic and didn't understand what was happening. Also fans wanna get on Reed Richards' case for being neglectful towards Sue at times and the times when they would clash whenever one of them is turned evil beyond their control. I'm guessing it's Spidey's pop-culture status that makes fans so forgiving towards him even when the slap happened again in Spider-Man 3 which I'm guessing Sam Raimi loved Clone Saga. Fans can be fickle like that.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think he rarely refers to/remembers those dark moments like him killing Charlie who committed suicide by spider punch though I vaguely remember that the Spider Punch was M mentioned lately somewhere.

It depends on writers/editors. Like Charlie's death was mentioned in Slott's No One Dies but otherwise downplayed in Spider-Man and Wolverine interactions.

Priest's Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 is a very controversial story after all. Peter killing Charlie is one issue there, another is Ned Leeds being randomly killed for the pettiest possible reason (Priest wanted to stick it to Defalco and others). The fact that it's set in Cold War Berlin creates issues comic book time-wise...I guess a retcon can make it Symkaria or Sokovia or whatever.

Some people call it a great story, and it's indeed well written in parts but others think it's flawed and problematic and certainly it creates issues that don't entirely resolve itself. For my part a team-up story which involves Spider-Man being insulted and mocked every way by Wolverine doesn't read like fun, doesn't make me want to see more of it, or tell me anything about the characters. I mean why is Wolverine so impatient and obnoxious with Spider-Man when Claremont in his collaboration with Frank Miller and others had him show camaraderie with Nightcrawler (who has a similar personality to Peter) and Kitty Pryde and others?

Exactly. Even though Hank paid for his actions, fans still wanna demonize him.

To be honest, that's not as much of an issue as the opposite, where people try to downplay and excuse Hank's actions. Even people who should know better like Jim Shooter himself, got roped into it.

Also fans wanna get on Reed Richards' case for being neglectful towards Sue at times and the times when they would clash whenever one of them is turned evil beyond their control.

That you can attribute to Stan Lee not being in general a good writer of female characters.

I'm guessing it's Spidey's pop-culture status that makes fans so forgiving towards him even when the slap happened again in Spider-Man 3....

Not considered a very good movie...and he was possessed by the Symbiote when that happened. But again not a good moment...

[Celgress]

It depends on writers/editors. Like Charlie's death was mentioned in Slott's No One Dies but otherwise downplayed in Spider-Man and Wolverine interactions.

Priest's Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 is a very controversial story after all. Peter killing Charlie is one issue there, another is Ned Leeds being randomly killed for the pettiest possible reason (Priest wanted to stick it to Defalco and others)....

Heck, I'm a Spidey history fanatic and while I remember Ned's untimely passing I often forget about the suicide punch controversy. I suppose this is because I put the suicide punch in the same never to be remembered category as Sins Past and MJ's AU future death by Peter's radioactive *ahem* love juice.

[Desmark]

It depends on writers/editors. Like Charlie's death was mentioned in Slott's No One Dies but otherwise downplayed in Spider-Man and Wolverine interactions.

Priest's Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 is a very controversial story after all. Peter killing Charlie is one issue there, another is Ned Leeds being randomly killed for the pettiest possible reason (Priest wanted to stick it to Defalco and others). The fact that it's set in Cold War Berlin creates issues comic book time-wise...I guess a retcon can make it Symkaria or Sokovia or whatever.

Some people call it a great story, and it's indeed well written in parts but others think it's flawed and problematic and certainly it creates issues that don't entirely resolve itself. For my part a team-up story which involves Spider-Man being insulted and mocked every way by Wolverine doesn't read like fun, doesn't make me want to see more of it, or tell me anything about the characters. I mean why is Wolverine so impatient and obnoxious with Spider-Man when Claremont in his collaboration with Frank Miller and others had him show camaraderie with Nightcrawler (who has a similar personality to Peter) and Kitty Pryde and others?



To be honest, that's not as much of an issue as the opposite, where people try to downplay and excuse Hank's actions. Even people who should know better like Jim Shooter himself, got roped into it.



That you can attribute to Stan Lee not being in general a good writer of female characters.



Not considered a very good movie...and he was possessed by the Symbiote when that happened. But again not a good moment...

I never could figure out why Peter is treated as a amateur in the comic in favour of boosting Wolverine. It was like every aspect of the book was a love letter to Wolverine fans while Peter came off as a green wet behind the ears kid trying to and failing to keep up with the surly world wise adult. Anyway as I figure it out Wolverine was trying to 'protect' Charlie and didn't want him involved as a unexpected factor complicating things. That still doesn't explain why Peter is shown to be so overwhelmed with all the death occurring around him that he started panicking during his fight with Wolverine and was ready to kill him throwing all his principles aside. It was the same in one of his reencounters with punisher where he was shown to be out of his depth yet once again and was scared by the fact that he shot him. It's like he always folds up when these war veterans show up.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I never could figure out why Peter is treated as a amateur in the comic in favour of boosting Wolverine.

Especially since in publication terms, Peter is the senior character. His debut is 1962 while Wolverine came in 1974.

It was like every aspect of the book was a love letter to Wolverine fans while Peter came off as a green wet behind the ears kid trying to and failing to keep up with the surly world wise adult.

That's how Jim Owsley/Christopher Priest saw the story and the character. My favorite Spider-Man and Wolverine interactions is in JMS especially when Peter abuses Logan's mutant powers and chucks him from the top floor of the skyscraper...to me that was catharsis.

It's like he always folds up when these war veterans show up.

Wolverine's a war veteran? Well, yeah I guess he is -- World War II, World War I and whatever small wars the Canadians fought in the 19th Century. Did he fight 1812?.

Heck, I'm a Spidey history fanatic and while I remember Ned's untimely passing I often forget about the suicide punch controversy. I suppose this is because I put the suicide punch in the same never to be remembered category as Sins Past and MJ's AU future death by Peter's radioactive *ahem* love juice.

It's funny that Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 isn't remembered for its most lasting contribution.

It was in that comic that "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" (eliding the "there must come" which recently people have re-read and added in from AF#15). It was in that comic, this phrase was attributed directly to Uncle Ben.

It was done casually in one caption where Peter says "the words of his Uncle Ben came back to him" and since then people assume that Ben actually said that when before, in none of the 280 issues leading to that did Ben, who still had a voice and influence on the stories and so on, was ever stated to have said that.

[Celgress]

....It's funny that Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 isn't remembered for its most lasting contribution.

It was in that comic that "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" (eliding the "there must come" which recently people have re-read and added in from AF#15). It was in that comic, this phrase was attributed directly to Uncle Ben.

It was done casually in one caption where Peter says "the words of his Uncle Ben came back to him" and since then people assume that Ben actually said that when before, in none of the 280 issues leading to that did Ben, who still had a voice and influence on the stories and so on, was ever stated to have said that.

Oh, I remember that bit. I was merely referencing its more negative aspects in response to the suicide punch incident you brought up. And yes, people do indeed often forget about the above use of our beloved Uncle Ben motto. For some reason, people mostly just remember Ned's demise, go figure.

[Desmark]

Especially since in publication terms, Peter is the senior character. His debut is 1962 while Wolverine came in 1974.



That's how Jim Owsley/Christopher Priest saw the story and the character. My favorite Spider-Man and Wolverine interactions is in JMS especially when Peter abuses Logan's mutant powers and chucks him from the top floor of the skyscraper...to me that was catharsis.



Wolverine's a war veteran? Well, yeah I guess he is -- World War II, World War I and whatever small wars the Canadians fought in the 19th Century. Did he fight 1812?.



It's funny that Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 isn't remembered for its most lasting contribution.

It was in that comic that "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" (eliding the "there must come" which recently people have re-read and added in from AF#15). It was in that comic, this phrase was attributed directly to Uncle Ben.

It was done casually in one caption where Peter says "the words of his Uncle Ben came back to him" and since then people assume that Ben actually said that when before, in none of the 280 issues leading to that did Ben, who still had a voice and influence on the stories and so on, was ever stated to have said that.

It's like there was no input from the spidey office with regards to Peter being made the patsy to boost the cool old dude that is Wolverine.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It's like there was no input from the spidey office with regards to Peter being made the patsy to boost the cool old dude that is Wolverine.

In this case, the writer of Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 was Jim Owsley who was also the line editor of all Spider-Man titles. So Owsley could well say, "I am the Spidey office". That's probably why he got so much leeway on that story...and in general Owsley as an editor did welcome and encourage slightly darker stuff, such as The Death of Jean deWolff. Owsley was a flawed editor and overall not a good fit for Spider-Man but some of his decisions were good. He was no Jim Salicrup (the best editor of the Spidey office) but he could be good. And of course Owsley when he became Christopher Priest wrote a lot of great runs including the definitive Black Panther.

The X-Men office might have raised concerns about Wolverine being shown so obnoxiously but they (Louise Simonson who was then the editor and who wrote the awesome ASM Annual #19) were probably happy that Wolverine was getting exposure with Spider-Man.

[Huntsman Spider]

Did Peter ever apologize for his actions? I don't recall him doing so. I think he rarely refers to/remembers those dark moments like him killing Charlie who committed suicide by spider punch though I vaguely remember that the Spider Punch was M mentioned lately somewhere.

Marvel Comics #1000 in the 1987 page (which might've been better-served for Peter's wedding to Mary Jane) by Christopher Priest and Daredevil #5 by Chip Zdarsky. Also, I may be recalling wrong, but he did apologize to MJ at the end of Maximum Clonage Omega before going to see Ben.

[Desmark]

In this case, the writer of Spider-Man V. Wolverine #1 was Jim Owsley who was also the line editor of all Spider-Man titles. So Owsley could well say, "I am the Spidey office". That's probably why he got so much leeway on that story...and in general Owsley as an editor did welcome and encourage slightly darker stuff, such as The Death of Jean deWolff. Owsley was a flawed editor and overall not a good fit for Spider-Man but some of his decisions were good. He was no Jim Salicrup (the best editor of the Spidey office) but he could be good. And of course Owsley when he became Christopher Priest wrote a lot of great runs including the definitive Black Panther.

The X-Men office might have raised concerns about Wolverine being shown so obnoxiously but they (Louise Simonson who was then the editor and who wrote the awesome ASM Annual #19) were probably happy that Wolverine was getting exposure with Spider-Man.

Marvel Comics #1000 in the 1987 page (which might've been better-served for Peter's wedding to Mary Jane) by Christopher Priest and Daredevil #5 by Chip Zdarsky. Also, I may be recalling wrong, but he did apologize to MJ at the end of Maximum Clonage Omega before going to see Ben.

Nice to know. Thanks for the info.