DC's "new" timeline revealed at NYCC

[Bruce Wayne]

But wouldn't people treating Batman: Year One as a sacred cow also be "privileging one's own personal experiences (of what stories "count") over the opinions/experiences" of others who don't feel the same?

And what about more recent readers who may feel "Zero Year" is the most important beginning of Batman story?

In a shared fictional universe like comics, you can have all these interpretations (if you have enough retcons or squint hard enough). The only-one-true-personal-canon-can-reign supreme turned DC into the private sandbox of one individual and his assistant who continue to screw this company despite the fact they are gone.

[Factor]

What's with the assumption that if the JSA time travels, they have to leave the past the moment they create to be active? It's just as easy to just leave them in the past four a decade or two to give the Infinitors time to be born and grow up, and then arrange a time jump. And it has the advantages that their arrival in the present can coincide with Flash of Two Worlds, instead of trying to explain why they didn't come out of retirement when Superman showed up in Metropolis or the Starro attack triggered the formation of the Justice League. As is, you'll want a time travel event that grabs more than just the JSA, so that family members and friends who are part of their supporting casts have an excise to be pulled to the present with them: you don't want Jay in the present while Joan is left to grow old and die back in the early 20th century, for example.

Because that would make the newest generation also time displaced heroes, which would really change the way they've been portrayed in the past. The new Hour Man, Jack Knight, Jesse Quick, Black Canary II and the Infinitors are all written as contemporary characters. Having them born prior to the League would change them too much, IMO. I don't see the Steve Rogers background working well for characters like BC, Jade and co.
I'd rather have them keep more regular origins and leave the crazy timetravel to the originals.
I also like the idea of the JSA having a secret history in the more recent past while the Leaguers were growing up.

[king81992]

In a shared fictional universe like comics, you can have all these interpretations (if you have enough retcons or squint hard enough). The only-one-true-personal-canon-can-reign supreme turned DC into the private sandbox of one individual and his assistant who continue to screw this company despite the fact they are gone.

I'd argue that more than two people over multiple years turned DC into their private sandbox.

[Dataweaver]

If it were up to me, it would be one Superman, Batman and WW in both Silver + Golden age, I'd just adjust things:

Superman marries Lois become editor of the Daily Star/ Planet and eventually have Jon. Super girl, Superman's cousin eventually takes the mantle of Power Girl (I've always felt that making SG and PG separate characters hurt both of them, and I'm a fan of each one individually).

WW marries Steve Trevor and has Lyra, who eventually becomes Fury (snd possibly WW?).

Batman marries Catwoman early in his career and they have Helena, who eventually becomes Huntress(not sure if I'd kill off Bruce or Selina, them being alive has more story potential). This also makes Batman more well adjusted instead of the bitter shell of a man who can't save anyone, treats his allies like crap and makes everything worse in the current continuity.

I can see the Justice Society and the Justice League in the same timeline. But it flat out does not work to place the Justice League a mirror 20 years before a sliding timeline Justice league. As I mentioned before, though, I could see we can textualizing the Earth One and Earth 2 stuff from the pre-crisis Multiverse as 21st century versus 20th century, with the Justice Society first emerging around World War II and then having all of their golden age, silver age, and bronze Age Adventures in the 20th century with their team-ups with the Justice League being explained through time travel. The question is whether or not you can reasonably incorporate the same Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman into both.

Wonder Woman is the easiest, I think. Keep all of the Golden Age Wonder Woman material completely intact, save only for the Cosmetic change that Wonder Woman herself does not visibly age: she is physically just as young when you get to the Crisis as she was when she started her career. Possibly strip out most of her supporting cast as well, so that they can be introduced in the 21st century; the only exception being Steve Trevor, who is needed both for his central role in her origin story and to be Lyta's father. After the Crisis, the Gods of Olympus give Steve and Diana a place with them. After the second age of superheroes begins in the 21st century, Diana returns to Earth and resumes her role as Wonder Woman. The only question is what happens to Steve: does he return with her? Or does he stay on Olympus? I'm debating whether the 21st century age of heroes should have a Steve Trevor; and if so, whether it's should be the Golden Age Steve brought back from Olympus or an indirect descendant of that one who was named after his famous forefather.

I'll get back to you on the Superman and Batman issues; right now, work is calling me. But a quick sneak peek: I'm considering the possibility of leveraging the “Golden Age Superman and Lois go to the Paradise Dimension” element of CoIE; though I haven't worked out all the details yet.

[Dataweaver]

Because that would make the newest generation also time displaced heroes, which would really change the way they've been portrayed in the past. The new Hour Man, Jack Knight, Jesse Quick, Black Canary II and the Infinitors are all written as contemporary characters. Having them born prior to the League would change them too much, IMO. I don't see the Steve Rogers background working well for characters like BC, Jade and co.
I'd rather have them keep more regular origins and leave the crazy timetravel to the originals.
I also like the idea of the JSA having a secret history in the more recent past while the Leaguers were growing up.

That can be adjusted for with my bit about the JSA migrating to the 21st century at the end of the First Crisis: it's a minor adjustment to change it from everyone waking up on Earth One in issue number 11 to everyone important waking up in the 21st century.

And maybe it's because of when I grew up; but I can totally see the infinitors being time displaced baby boomers.

[Restingvoice]

Well, then that's the answer. We're not changing things unless it's necessary. Keep it in WW2, adjust the other things.

Next question.

Our focus should always be the status quo of the present because most stories sold by DC are set in the present. So what is the status quo for those WW2 JSA in the present day? Alive? Dead? Active? Retired? Others?

Don't think about how they age, what's their age, where they've been or which Earth they're staying yet. Just think of where do you want them to be now, or the last time they show up in the present day. What are they doing?

Some should be alive and active, some should be alive and retired, and unfortunately, some will be dead.

Jay should be mentoring the next generation of heroes, a mentor for Barry(he needs one based on some of his bad decisions)and the in-universe author of Flash comics, loosely based on his solo adventures.

Okay, so we got our Point A to Point B. The beginning is WW2 until now the present where the survivors are active or mentor the younger heroes.

So between the 1940s to 2020s where they retired, active, or become mentors, what other definitive landmark stories or development that needs to be included in the JSA timeline and when should that happen?

Don't think about how it relates to other heroes just yet.

I'm looking up Infinity Inc since I heard it includes the JSA's kids, but I'm not thinking about how it relates to present-day heroes just yet.

But wouldn't people treating Batman: Year One as a sacred cow also be "privileging one's own personal experiences (of what stories "count") over the opinions/experiences" of others who don't feel the same?

And what about more recent readers who may feel "Zero Year" is the most important beginning of Batman's story?

It does. This is probably one reason why, besides the time meddling, they haven't define Batman's origin again except for bits and pieces from both stories. Year One in Tom King's Batman, Zero Year wherever Snyder's writing.

So let's say we remove Batman Year One the book from the backbone of the common timeline, then what we got with enough consistency everyone can accept should be The Death of The Waynes, the training across the globe, and Yes Father, I Shall Become a Bat.

This is the back story after all. The most important part of the Batman mythos is where is he now, then we can fill in who he was and how he came to be

The current Iconic timeline:
WW2 - JSA
The Origin of Batman - Who He is and How He came To Be
Death and Return of Superman
Present-day - The 40s JSA are either dead, retired, active, or mentor (in progress)

You guys can add more stories you think most people agree should be included in the timeline. This is for the public, not personal.

I think we can add Knightfall there?

[Dataweaver]

Okay, so we got our Point A to Point B. The beginning is WW2 until now the present where the survivors are active or mentor the younger heroes.

So between the 1940s to 2020s where they retired, active, or become mentors, what other definitive landmark stories or development that needs to be included in the JSA timeline and when should that happen?

Don't think about how it relates to other heroes just yet.



It does. This is probably one reason why, besides the time meddling, they haven't define Batman's origin again except for bits and pieces from both stories. Year One in Tom King's Batman, Zero Year wherever Snyder's writing.

So let's say we remove Batman Year One the book from the backbone of the common timeline, then what we got with enough consistency everyone can accept should be The Death of The Waynes, the training across the globe, and Yes Father, I Shall Become a Bat.

This is the back story after all. The most important part of the Batman mythos is where is he now, then we can fill in who he was and how he came to be

I've already said what I'd like to see done: treat the 20th century as Earth 2 and the 21st century as Earth 1. So the JSA retires in 1951, and comes out of retirement about a decade later after a couple of time travel incidents put them in contact with the 21st century Justice League. They then have all of their silver and bronze Age Adventures, including periodical team ups with the future League, until the Crisis hits. When that happens, they and they're supporting casts are forcibly relocated into the 21st century, with wibbley wobbly timey wimey stuff preventing them from just going back (something about solidified time and messing with the time stream if they do try to go back on any sort of permanent basis).

I'm still debating what to do on the Batman stuff. Part of it depends on whether or not we want there to be a golden age Batman.

[Dataweaver]

The Black Canary situation can be resolved in a couple of ways. One is to say that the Golden Age Black Canary relocated to the Silver age far before anyone else did, and that there is no separate Silver age Black Canary. Another possibility is to say that the Silver age Black Canary is a descendant of the Golden Age black canary, but not her daughter; at least one generation removed, probably more, and with the exact number of generations left open so that it can be expanded as time goes on. That is, stick to descendant rather than granddaughter or great-granddaughter.

This can be done because as far as I know no familial connection between the two has really been shown. That is, we've been told that one is the daughter of the other, but we've never seen any mother-daughter interact of any significance. This is in contrast to, for example, Jade and obsidian, who have had numerous very direct interactions with Alan Scott in a father-child dynamic.

[Restingvoice]

I've already said what I'd like to see done: treat the 20th century as Earth 2 and the 21st century as Earth 1. So the JSA retires in 1951, and comes out of retirement about a decade later after a couple of time travel incidents put them in contact with the 21st century Justice League. They then have all of their silver and bronze Age Adventures, including periodical team ups with the future League, until the Crisis hits. When that happens, they and they're supporting casts are forcibly relocated into the 21st century, with wibbley wobbly timey wimey stuff preventing them from just going back (something about solidified time and messing with the time stream if they do try to go back on any sort of permanent basis).

I'm still debating what to do on the Batman stuff. Part of it depends on whether or not we want there to be a golden age Batman.

I'm focusing on what happened and not yet how it happened because people are already debating on different Earths and time travel.

JSA timeline:
The 40s - WW2 - JSA
The 50s - JSA retired
The 60s - JSA came out of retirement, Silver Age adventures
The 70s - Bronze Age adventures
The 2020s - The old JSA is dead, retired, active, or mentor

We're separating that timeline from the JLA timeline for now. Less confusion.

The Black Canary situation can be resolved in a couple of ways. One is to say that the Golden Age Black Canary relocated to the Silver age far before anyone else did, and that there is no separate Silver age Black Canary. Another possibility is to say that the Silver age Black Canary is a descendant of the Golden Age black canary, but not her daughter; at least one generation removed, probably more, and with the exact number of generations left open so that it can be expanded as time goes on. That is, stick to descendant rather than granddaughter or great-granddaughter.

This can be done because as far as I know no familial connection between the two has really been shown. That is, we've been told that one is the daughter of the other, but we've never seen any mother-daughter interact of any significance. This is in contrast to, for example, Jade and obsidian, who have had numerous very direct interactions with Alan Scott in a father-child dynamic.

I'm starting with Dinah Lance. She only has one place in the timeline, with Babs to form Birds of Prey post Crisis. I know it's Dinah Drake that forms Birds in New 52 but choosing that means adding confusion, what with the other version of Dinah Drake.

JLA timeline, no years because we don't know how they relate to the JSA just yet:
Krypton explodes
Kal-El landed on Earth and was raised by Kents
Death of The Waynes
Batman training
Batman debuts
Justice League formation
Death and Return of Superman
Birds of Prey formation

Whose generation Obsidian and Jade relate to?
Might as well ask about Stargirl...
These ones I have to ask where they relate to other heroes because they're considered present-day heroes.

Also about Crisis, do we want to include them or are we imagining that this is a streamlined timeline? Because right now I feel like the Crisis is an answer to How Things Happened instead of What Happened.

[Dataweaver]

I'm focusing on what happened and not yet how it happened because people are already debating on different Earths and time travel.

JSA timeline:
The 40s - WW2 - JSA
The 50s - JSA retired
The 60s - JSA came out of retirement, Silver Age adventures
The 70s - Bronze Age adventures
The 2020s - The old JSA is dead, retired, active, or mentor

We're separating that timeline from the JLA timeline for now. Less confusion.



I'm starting with Dinah Lance. She only has one place in the timeline, with Babs to form Birds of Prey post Crisis. I know it's Dinah Drake that forms Birds in New 52 but choosing that means adding confusion, what with the other version of Dinah Drake.

JLA timeline, no years because we don't know how they relate to the JSA just yet:
Krypton explodes
Kal-El landed on Earth and was raised by Kents
Death of The Waynes
Batman training
Batman debuts
Justice League formation
Death and Return of Superman
Birds of Prey formation

Whose generation Obsidian and Jade relate to?
Might as well ask about Stargirl...
These ones I have to ask where they relate to other heroes because they're considered present-day heroes.

Also about Crisis, do we want to include them or are we imagining that this is a streamlined timeline? Because right now I feel like the Crisis is an answer to How Things Happened instead of What Happened.

My Philosophy is to change as little as possible while still establishing a single timeline for what at the time was two Earths. And to that end, the simplest change is to hook them up in Ceres rather than in parallel, and to replace dimensional travel between them with time travel between them.

I'm not thinking of the crisis as a how; I'm thinking of it as a when. Namely, the point that the JSA gets permanently relocated to the modern era is when the crisis would have happened. When it happened in the 20th century (the end of the Bronze Age) is when they depart. When it happened in the 21st century (the beginning of the post crisis era) is when they arrive.

Edit: and yes, we do want to include something to the effect of the crisis, because significant changes took place. For instance, Supergirl died and Barry was replaced by wally as the flash.

Finally, Jade and obsidian are part of infinity incorporated. They were among the last of the JSA Legacy characters to appear.

[king81992]

Okay, so we got our Point A to Point B. The beginning is WW2 until now the present where the survivors are active or mentor the younger heroes.

So between the 1940s to 2020s where they retired, active, or become mentors, what other definitive landmark stories or development that needs to be included in the JSA timeline and when should that happen?

Don't think about how it relates to other heroes just yet.

I'm looking up Infinity Inc since I heard it includes the JSA's kids, but I'm not thinking about how it relates to present-day heroes just yet.



It does. This is probably one reason why, besides the time meddling, they haven't define Batman's origin again except for bits and pieces from both stories. Year One in Tom King's Batman, Zero Year wherever Snyder's writing.

So let's say we remove Batman Year One the book from the backbone of the common timeline, then what we got with enough consistency everyone can accept should be The Death of The Waynes, the training across the globe, and Yes Father, I Shall Become a Bat.

This is the back story after all. The most important part of the Batman mythos is where is he now, then we can fill in who he was and how he came to be

The current Iconic timeline:
WW2 - JSA
The Origin of Batman - Who He is and How He came To Be
Death and Return of Superman
Present-day - The 40s JSA are either dead, retired, active, or mentor (in progress)

You guys can add more stories you think most people agree should be included in the timeline. This is for the public, not personal.

I think we can add Knightfall there?

For the JSA, you would need to define what caused them to disband and go underground or the events that led Superman, Batman and WW to join, if they weren't on the JSA's original roster.

If Superman, Batman and the WW are on the founding roster, it changes quite a bit, the JSA become much less likely to go underground for a few years.

[king81992]

My Philosophy is to change as little as possible while still establishing a single timeline for what at the time was two Earths. And to that end, the simplest change is to hook them up in Ceres rather than in parallel, and to replace dimensional travel between them with time travel between them.

I'm not thinking of the crisis as a how; I'm thinking of it as a when. Namely, the point that the JSA gets permanently relocated to the modern era is when the crisis would have happened. When it happened in the 20th century (the end of the Bronze Age) is when they depart. When it happened in the 21st century (the beginning of the post crisis era) is when they arrive.

Edit: and yes, we do want to include something to the effect of the crisis, because significant changes took place. For instance, Supergirl died and Barry was replaced by wally as the flash.

Finally, Jade and obsidian are part of infinity incorporated. They were among the last of the JSA Legacy characters to appear.

Personally, I would ignore the Crises and put everything on one Earth, then build a timeline from there.

[Restingvoice]

My Philosophy is to change as little as possible while still establishing a single timeline for what at the time was two Earths. And to that end, the simplest change is to hook them up in Ceres rather than in parallel, and to replace dimensional travel between them with time travel between them.

I'm not thinking of the crisis as a how; I'm thinking of it as a when. Namely, the point that the JSA gets permanently relocated to the modern era is when the crisis would have happened. When it happened in the 20th century (the end of the Bronze Age) is when they depart. When it happened in the 21st century (the beginning of the post crisis era) is when they arrive.

Edit: and yes, we do want to include something to the effect of the crisis, because significant changes took place. For instance, Supergirl died and Barry was replaced by wally as the flash.

Agh... you're right... to DC and comic fans, Crisis is iconic... but if that's the case I might as well not make a new timeline, coz the timeline is what DC published from the 40s to now.

The idea of making a new timeline, at least for me, comes from the idea that we're simplifying things that are happening in the story for the current generation of readers, like post-Infinite Frontier, but if we're including the Crisis and maybe all the Crisis, then to me, that's not simplifying things.

Crisis back then was used to simplify things to one Earth, but it's erasing history, so they brought infinite Earths back now. By that understanding, I think the Pre Crisis Earths are back, alongside the Metaverse Earths like Earth 52 and the rest.

I want to focus just on Earth 0 history, but it has to relate to other Earths too because that is their history. These characters have been involved in multiple piles of earth and time travel, so talking about Crisis, infinite earth, and time travel is unavoidable

Hang on let me rewire my brain a little bit.

Wait, was JSA actually brought from the past to the present during the Justice Doom War and they're staying in the present? Was that the story?

[Dataweaver]

The crisis doesn't have to be cross dimensions; it can just be cross time.

And there are a couple of post prices stories that justify the idea of bringing the Justice Society forward in time around the time of the crisis.

[Restingvoice]

The crisis doesn't have to be cross dimensions; it can just be cross time.

No... with Earth 0 history includes having a Multiverse, Earth 3 at the very least, breaking the Source Wall and expanding to Omniverse I might as well view it as it is unless I have a reason not to

For the JSA, you would need to define what caused them to disband and go underground or the events that led Superman, Batman, and WW to join if they weren't on the JSA's original roster.

If Superman, Batman, and the WW are on the founding roster, it changes quite a bit, the JSA becomes much less likely to go underground for a few years.

'kay. If that's the way it has to be then we need to talk about the Trinity after all.

The Trinity joined JSA because that was the only team back then.
They don't join the JSA because they're the next generation after WW2.

The Trinity has proven to be the more popular and has been adjusted to modern days so they don't need to be in the JSA. Their more popular team is JLA anyway, but that's the present day and doesn't answer their involvement in the past.

Hmm...

Back to Obsidian, Jade, and Stargirl. Whose generation do they relate to? They're younger than Bruce, Clark, and Diana, right, but exactly how young?

Dinah Lance is young enough to hang out with Babs and old enough to marry Ollie.