DC's "new" timeline revealed at NYCC

[Zaresh]

It seems to me that they'e reordering the events because they want them to make sense with the dynamics between the characters as they have them planned and thought right now and for the years to come.

I agree in that they're putting too many years into each generation, though. But then, we don't really know how the're going to do it all; so it might make some sense to them. @restingvoive theory of the time reserts makes a lot of sense, so they may be in the need of putting them in the timeline for the plot of something that will happen next year or the following one.

[Tzigone]

Pre-Flashpoint continuity was a mess. Superman had three reboots, Byrne, Waid, and then Johns all with completely unreconcilable origins. WW continuity was also a mess given all the constant widely about turns and each new creator tossing out previous continuity. Aquaman, holy **** Aquaman was wild, go look up his handling before the New 52. Batman and GL were fine and that’s why they didn’t get rebooted at all. But it’s incorrect to say everything was perfect continuity wise before the reboot.

I agree with you on all those cases. Aquaman - just the entire Orin and separate Arthur thing is so mess-with-your-head.

How was Green Arrow in late post-COIE era for continuity consistency? I ask because they jettisoned a lot of his supporting cast. I can definitely think of some retcons, but am not sure how much they interfered with coherency. There were definitely some problems with Batman, too, (or at least with Dick), but perhaps more easily overlooked ones.

[lawman]

It seems to me that they'e reordering the events because they want them to make sense with the dynamics between the characters as they have them planned and thought right now and for the years to come.

I agree in that they're putting too many years into each generation, though. But then, we don't really know how the're going to do it all; so it might make some sense to them. @restingvoice theory of the time reserts makes a lot of sense, so they may be in the need of putting them in the timeline for the plot of something that will happen next year or the following one.

Ooh, you have way more confidence in Didio and company's creative foresight than I do!

You're definitely right about one thing, though: they planned it this way, and they think it makes sense for some reason. That, however, runs directly contrary to the proposition of periodic time/age "resets," e.g....

I'm working with the idea that everyone's age resets so that it's not awkward in-universe.

While I'm impressed by the ingenuity Restingvoice put into this, the logic just doesn't hold up, because all it would accomplish is to make things more awkward in-universe. As Tzigone notes,

And if they don't remember the events, they don't impact their actions and so everyone would be totally confused that they're in different houses, they're divorced, their mom or child has died. ... Unless you mean an actual universe-reset for five years. But that's a reboot and the last five years aren't in continuity anymore, so this is not a continuous timeline, but rather each generation is a different continuity.

It would be just as much of a dramatic society-altering mindfuck as the MCU presented in Endgame (the emotional consequences of which it at least touched on, if only to paper them over afterward), except as a recurring thing every few years!

And, of course, editorial powers being what they are, if DC's PTB wanted the characters to be younger, they could just as easily have shown us a chart in which Gen2 = 5 years, Gen3 = 5 years, and Gen4 = 2 years, and told us that's how things stand. Clark would be 36, Dick would be 26, Tim would be 19, and all would be right (or at least familiar) with the world. Would the time compression be even more crazily illogical than it is now? Of course! Would 82=37 be every bit as mind-bending as 82=60? Of course! But they could've done it anyway, if that's the outcome they wanted.

The approach to aging I'd prefer is one in which time passes normally, but it's simply not an issue for most characters. For example:
* It's not a problem for Diana, because she's an immortal Amazon. (And, in fact, this seems to be the approach DC is now taking with her.)
* It's not a problem for Clark, because his powers make him functionally immortal (as shown in any number of future-set stories).
* It's not a problem for Bruce, at least not for the foreseeable future, because he's been restored/rejuvenated by Lazarus Pits at least twice that we know of (once in Birth of the Demon, then again in Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul).
* It's not a problem for any Golden Age hero who was part of the JSA as of Sept. 1941 (because they were all bathed in "chronal energy" that slowed their aging to some unspecified extent, as shown in All-Star Squadron Annual #3 and reaffirmed in JSA v3 #7)
* It's not a problem for J'onn (because Martian)
* It's (arguably) not a problem for Barry (because Speed Force)
* It's (arguably) not a problem for Hal (because power ring)
* It's not a problem for Dinah (because Lazarus Pit, again)

...and so forth. Essentially, these characters can remain "youthful" as long as stories require it, without ignoring the date on the calendar.

Unfortunately, of course, that still leaves a lot of characters not covered... including notably Ollie (although he has died and been resurrected once), as well as Dick and most of his generation of peers/former sidekicks, plus most of the supporting casts (Lois! Alfred!), not to mention the villains. So in a shared universe where the PTB refuse to let familiar characters move on in life and pass the torch, it remains a thorny issue.

Still, I can't help but wonder what Didio and company have in mind with the ages in the scenario they've set up. In a nutshell, if we take the timeline at face value, they lay out like this:

Jay's age at... JSA retirement (Y18)=37; Year One(Y26)=45; Crisis(Y40)=59; Flashpoint(Y55)=74; Now(Y60)=79
Clark's age at... JSA retirement=17; Year One=25; Crisis=39; Flashpoint=54; Now=59
Bruce's age at... JSA retirement=11; Year One=19; Crisis=33; Flashpoint=48; Now=53
Barry's age at... Year One≥23; Crisis=37; Flashpoint=38*(because dead for 14 years); Now=43
Hal's age at... Year One≥25; Crisis=39; Flashpoint=49*(because dead for 5 years); Now=54
Babs' age at... Year One=12?; Crisis=26; Flashpoint=41; Now=46
Dick's age at... Year One=8?; Crisis=22; Flashpoint=37; Now=42
Tim's age at... Crisis=9?; Flashpoint=24; Now=29
Damian's age at... Flashpoint=10; Now=15

FWIW, with the slightly more compressed and IMHO more logical version of the timeline I laid out earlier (Year One still in Y26, but Crisis in Y36, FP in Y50, Now=Y54), most of those ages would be reduced by about six years (maybe four for Dick, one for Tim), which IMHO fits their history as we know it at least slightly better. YMMV, of course.

One thing I find particularly interesting is what they've chosen to do with Bruce's backstory... and it is clearly a deliberate choice, because they could've situated his childhood pretty much anywhere in Gen1. Traditionally, per Batman:Year One, which has been the dominant version of his origin for over 30 years now, he was 25 at the beginning of that year. Now, as the timeline has it, he can be no more than 19. IMHO it undermines everything we've been shown about the many years he spent as an adolescent and an adult traveling the world acquiring the education, training, and skills he needed before he put on the cape and cowl. The notion that he could've been prepared by 19 isn't entirely impossible, but it strains credulity. I wonder what the thinking is behind this change?

[Tzigone]

* It's not a problem for Diana, because she's an immortal Amazon. (And, in fact, this seems to be the approach DC is now taking with her.)
* It's not a problem for Clark, because his powers make him functionally immortal (as shown in any number of future-set stories).
* It's not a problem for Bruce, at least not for the foreseeable future, because he's been restored/rejuvenated by Lazarus Pits at least twice that we know of (once in Birth of the Demon, then again in Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul).
* It's not a problem for any Golden Age hero who was part of the JSA as of Sept. 1941 (because they were all bathed in "chronal energy" that slowed their aging to some unspecified extent, as shown in All-Star Squadron Annual #3 and reaffirmed in JSA v3 #7)
* It's not a problem for J'onn (because Martian)
* It's (arguably) not a problem for Barry (because Speed Force)
* It's (arguably) not a problem for Hal (because power ring)
* It's not a problem for Dinah (because Lazarus Pit, again)

But it is still a problem for a lot of those if you want to keep their supporting casts. The people around them m(including their children) would still age. Neighbors and co-workers would notice the non-aging. It's a plot-hole to me if they don't.

Jay's age at... JSA retirement (Y18)=37; Year One(Y26)=45; Crisis(Y40)=59; Flashpoint(Y55)=74; Now(Y60)=79
Clark's age at... JSA retirement=17; Year One=25; Crisis=39; Flashpoint=54; Now=59
Bruce's age at... JSA retirement=11; Year One=19; Crisis=33; Flashpoint=48; Now=53
Barry's age at... Year One≥23; Crisis=37; Flashpoint=38*(because dead for 14 years); Now=43
Hal's age at... Year One≥25; Crisis=39; Flashpoint=49*(because dead for 5 years); Now=54
Babs' age at... Year One=12?; Crisis=26; Flashpoint=41; Now=46
Dick's age at... Year One=8?; Crisis=22; Flashpoint=37; Now=42
Tim's age at... Crisis=9?; Flashpoint=24; Now=29
Damian's age at... Flashpoint=10; Now=15

FWIW, with the slightly more compressed and IMHO more logical version of the timeline I laid out earlier (Year One still in Y26, but Crisis in Y36, FP in Y50, Now=Y54), most of those ages would be reduced by about six years (maybe four for Dick, one for Tim), which IMHO fits their history as we know it at least slightly better. YMMV, of course.

I mostly agree with your assessment.

Traditionally, per Batman:Year One, which has been the dominant version of his origin for over 30 years now, he was 25 at the beginning of that year. Now, as the timeline has it, he can be no more than 19. IMHO it undermines everything we've been shown about the many years he spent as an adolescent and an adult traveling the world acquiring the education, training, and skills he needed before he put on the cape and cowl. The notion that he could've been prepared by 19 isn't entirely impossible, but it strains credulity. I wonder what the thinking is behind this change?

Beats me. Now, I have never liked the traveling-the-world anonymously to gain skills bit, and I especially hate him the League of Assassins during that or doing so during adolescence. Though I don't like Year One, though, I acknowledge it's weight in the mythos. I preferred earlier versions. But even originally, 25 worked very well, as it was 15 years after his parents' deaths.

[Vordan]

I agree with you on all those cases. Aquaman - just the entire Orin and separate Arthur thing is so mess-with-your-head.

How was Green Arrow in late post-COIE era for continuity consistency? I ask because they jettisoned a lot of his supporting cast. I can definitely think of some retcons, but am not sure how much they interfered with coherency. There were definitely some problems with Batman, too, (or at least with Dick), but perhaps more easily overlooked ones.

He was dead for a long time which helped with continuity consistency since no one could use him lol. I think Ollie came back in Kevin Smith’s Green Arrow run. I believe that like GL, Ollie got to keep a lot of his previous continuity but I would need to go back and reread.

[Tzigone]

He was dead for a long time which helped with continuity consistency since no one could use him lol. I think Ollie came back in Kevin Smith’s Green Arrow run. I believe that like GL, Ollie got to keep a lot of his previous continuity but I would need to go back and reread.

He wasn't dead that long, was he? 5 or 6 years is a while, though, I admit. I remember the retcon that he knew about Connor all along. Anyway, he'd been alive again for a decade when he died, so I just wondered. I think I've seen a panel from one comic where he'd supposedly had custody of Roy since he was 8, but don't know if that contradicted any post-COIE established continuity. Mia and Connor disappeared with reboot, so I wondered if they were continuity snarls, but probably just general de-aging and they weren't important enough to keep the way the BatBabies were.

[Zaresh]

If anything, looking at these charts was a good thing for those that were wondering if they would bring back Connor into continuity.

[Restingvoice]

While I'm impressed by the ingenuity Restingvoice put into this, the logic just doesn't hold up, because all it would accomplish is to make things more awkward in-universe. As Tzigone notes,

It would be just as much of a dramatic society-altering mindfuck as the MCU presented in Endgame (the emotional consequences of which it at least touched on, if only to paper them over afterward), except as a recurring thing every few years!

Yeah, we decided that if it's gonna happen in the time points I mentioned, it's gonna be a full-on reboot including memory altering that makes everyone remember the new ages and expereince as what they always have with the exception of the Suspendium plot for Fawcett city.

I avoided the word reboot because that means they can do whatever, with the real-time aging only considered for specific characters like Damian, Jon, and Gen 1 and 2

Honestly, looking at everything, it looks like that's what they're thinking. They deliberately count the ages of certain characters so they match, but the rest is settled with the canon reboots.

[lawman]

Yeah, we decided that if it's gonna happen in the time points I mentioned, it's gonna be a full-on reboot including memory altering that makes everyone remember the new ages and expereince...

Honestly, looking at everything, it looks like that's what they're thinking. They deliberately count the ages of certain characters so they match, but the rest is settled with the canon reboots.

Could be. We can't rule anything out at this point.

But we should remember (again) that Didio said "This timeline will build a continuity that makes sense across all our characters, showing when they were first introduced, how they interact with each other in one big story that will be the basis for all DC Comics for the future. What you see right now is a story that will be consistent." A nested series of reboots is... not that. He's not above lying for PR purposes, of course, but it would be a helluva bait-and-switch.

[Tzigone]

Could be. We can't rule anything out at this point.

But we should remember (again) that Didio said "This timeline will build a continuity that makes sense across all our characters, showing when they were first introduced, how they interact with each other in one big story that will be the basis for all DC Comics for the future. What you see right now is a story that will be consistent." A nested series of reboots is... not that. He's not above lying for PR purposes, of course, but it would be a helluva bait-and-switch.

It would be. If it's not, it looks like they are going with G5 and all that. Though DiDio does like anything that gets people talking, even if it gets them angry. The thing that gets me is it's not just the first gen getting old that's a problem. There are several relative ages that are weird.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

ComicsBeat specifically mentions Hypertime in their 5G write-up, so maybe we should be looking at this as mostly a meta-timeline for us fans to follow, and each Generation is its own continuity.

[Tzigone]

ComicsBeat specifically mentions Hypertime in their 5G write-up, so maybe we should be looking at this as mostly a meta-timeline for us fans to follow, and each Generation is its own continuity.

I did notice that, but don't actually know what Hypertime is. So I looked it up and it looks like it's basically just a variation on alternate universes (from a reader perspective)? If they're doing that, then why couldn't I have my kid!Jon while the other timeline got the older one, darn it?!

Don't see how that's going to make comics more accessible - especially if these realities/timelines crossover. Or how it impacts the timeline they gave us, since (as I said, I don't know much about it), it would still be WWII 60 prior to the "present" gen, presuming people weren't born at different times in different timelines.

I feel like I must be missing something, because I don't this as a meta-timeline. Meta-timeline would be 82 years, I'd think, or not start at WWII (being only 60 because you want first Gen as "elder statesmen" and not mostly dead).

Anyway, I guess we can treat it like Earths/Timelines A-E, or whatnot. But if the gens are all different timelines, I want to see all 60 years for each timeline.

[Zaresh]

Maybe...

Maybe the characters probably will feel like the inconsistencies aren't inconsistencies because they can't look outside their own multiverse, unlike characters like Spectre (I think he can?) and others who can see the meta aspects of the stories and backgrounds of their characters. Think Bruce Wayne during his Gen 3 phase. He would remember his childhood during the last days and post-war of the WWII, and would rationally think that his childhood was in the 60 probably. But when he tries to add one plus one, he doesn't see the inconsistencies because the narrative, the meta aspect in that Gen, doesn't allow him to do so. Something like what we do as readers with stuff like that; but where we choose to ignore those anachronisms, they just aren't allowed to choose. And it doesn't matter much, because us, the readers, aren't going to question it because we're aware; and they aren't going to think of those inconsistencies when we're not reading, because fhey don't exist outside those stories.

I know it's anything but an easy and clean way of explaining it; but it's very in line with other ideas that I've seen in other works. It could be.

I don't think that it's what's happening here, but it's another possibility, I guess.

[Maxi]

Pre-Flashpoint continuity was a mess. Superman had three reboots, Byrne, Waid, and then Johns all with completely unreconcilable origins. WW continuity was also a mess given all the constant widely about turns and each new creator tossing out previous continuity. Aquaman, holy **** Aquaman was wild, go look up his handling before the New 52. Batman and GL were fine and that’s why they didn’t get rebooted at all. But it’s incorrect to say everything was perfect continuity wise before the reboot.

And yet none of that remotely compares to what they've done with the New 52. At least back then you could track down when things happened. It was a continuity with some messes, but it was a continuity. Now there's just a mess.

[lawman]

There are several relative ages that are weird.

Curious what specifically you're thinking about. (Not that I disagree, just curious!)

But if the gens are all different timelines, I want to see all 60 years for each timeline.

Hear, hear! If it's just gaps between reboots, then we don't have a "single" timeline here at all.

Think Bruce Wayne during his Gen 3 phase. He would remember his childhood during the last days and post-war of the WWII, and would rationally think that his childhood was in the 60 probably. But when he tries to add one plus one, he doesn't see the inconsistencies because the narrative, the meta aspect in that Gen, doesn't allow him to do so.

But... but that's insane. Literally. It means that a universe's worth of people would lack the ability to reconcile their memories with basic arithmetic, or would have unreconcileable cognitive dissonance. That's the sort of thing that, in real life, makes people think they're losing their grip on reality. Making it widespread across a fictional reality would completely undermine the integrity of the characters.