DC's "new" timeline revealed at NYCC

[Restingvoice]

Earth 0 didn't exist before the Crisis; but it did exist after the Crisis: when the Crisis ended, a new timeline was established that incorporated elements from Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 4, Earth S, and even a very little bit from Earth X. The post-Crisis history included both a JSA in WWII and a JLA in the present.

Then this new timeline/history of Earth 0 will be similar to that. Since now we have Earth 1 to infinity in the Omniverse, the versions that enact the exact same story will play out in each of those earth, while the one that plays out in the history of Earth 0 will have some adjustments.

[Dataweaver]

Then this new timeline/history of Earth 0 will be similar to that. Since now we have Earth 1 to infinity in the Omniverse, the versions that enact the exact same story will play out in each of those earth, while the one that plays out in the history of Earth 0 will have some adjustments.

Agreed. That said, the biggest problem with the Earth 0 history that we had up until Flashpoint was that an additional 25 years of pounding had passed, advancing the floating timeline by a bit (maybe as much as ten years or so) but widening the gap between the end of the Golden Age and the start of the modern age from, oh, fifteen years when the new timeline was first established to a full thirty years. And it's only gotten worse since then: now, instead of the 5ish year age difference that existed when the JLA was first published in the 60s, we’re looking at something closer to a 45-year gap; and with the JLA generation wedding into their 40s, that would force the JSA generation to be in their 80s or 90s by now, barring something to address the issue.

I've thought this through.

[Restingvoice]

Agreed. That said, the biggest problem with the Earth 0 history that we had up until Flashpoint was that an additional 25 years of pounding had passed, advancing the floating timeline by a bit (maybe as much as ten years or so) but widening the gap between the end of the Golden Age and the start of the modern age from, oh, fifteen years when the new timeline was first established to a full thirty years. And it's only gotten worse since then: now, instead of the 5ish year age difference that existed when the JLA was first published in the 60s, we’re looking at something closer to a 45-year gap; and with the JLA generation wedding into their 40s, that would force the JSA generation to be in their 80s or 90s by now, barring something to address the issue.

I've thought this through.

is there a reason the JSA has to be that old or is that just because the Trinity and their sidekicks are set in the present day and were never JSA?

[Dataweaver]

is there a reason the JSA has to be that old or is that just because the Trinity and their sidekicks are set in the present day and were never JSA?

It's strictly an issue of logistics: of you were in your 20s in 1941 and have aged naturally all the way through since then, and the current year is 2021, then your age is now crossing the 100-year mark. If there's a way around it (and there is), then something considerably younger is preferable: the JSA has children in their 20s and 30s, which puts a floor on how young they can be; but to keep them from being the Geriatric Society of America, they should be as close to that floor as possible. I think the ideal age for them at this point is in their late 50s and early 60s, about fifteen years older than the JLAers.

[John Venus]

I see where you're coming from.

That said, I don't think a 'consensus' timeline is impossible. Its possible to try to come up with a timeline that incorporates as much of the disparate elements as possible. So for instance, in the case of Superboy, have Superboy operate under the radar in Smallville, while Superman is the big debut. Wonder Woman could have started out in WW2 and return to Man's World and be reintroduced in the present-day. Superman can be the first hero of the modern age, and the JSA could be barely remembered legends from WW2 (especially in a situation where they were forcibly removed from the universe in-story somehow).

But its true that as time goes by, the notion of a 'mainstream' DC continuity will grow increasingly less relevant. Maybe that's what Infinite Frontier and the Omniverse is supposed to set up...

Some details may work when you look at it from a broader birds eye view point but fall apart when you get down to the granular details. I'm fine with Supes having adventures under the radar when he was a teen but stuff like WW being in WW2 has greater implications than people think. For instance, what does it mean for her supporting cast? Is Steve Trevor dead? What about her enemies? Which ones stayed in WW2 and which ones stayed in the present? What made her return to Paradise Island and not come out for decades? There is also fact that Diana's primary mission is to fight for peace and equality and it feels very cynical that somebody as powerful as her couldn't create long lasting change for Man's World. Even the movies opened up this plot hole by having her mope for decades and not doing anything of note until the magic wishing stone came about.

[Dataweaver]

I can't address all of that off the top of my head; but as I understand it, most of the Golden Age Wonder Woman's supporting cast want particularly important or memorable. Steve Trevor is the single biggest exception, both in terms of being instrumental in getting her off of Paradise Island in the first place and in that he eventually became her husband and the father to her daughter. Unless you're going too write Lyta Trevor, a.k.a. Fury, out of the timeline.

But yeah; every change you make is going to have ramifications. Chanting a little as possible is vital to keep from getting swamped by unintended consequences.

Of course, it doesn't help that we've already gone through two revisions where the consequences weren't sufficiently thought through in advance; so part of the task now is to resolve the inconsistencies that the previous revisions created.

[John Venus]

They aren't important because they aren't treated as important though. There is a lot of potential in Etta Candy, the Holiday Girls, Villainy Inc, the Duke of Deception and the Earl of Greed, especially as commentary and capitalize on what they are meant to represent. Steve's important is due to Chris Pines portrayal of him in the movie and they chose to give Etta the short shrift again.

If you are going to do WW in Golden Age then I think the best route is the classic Earth 2 take where she grows old and has kids (but give a different reason for why she aged) is the way to go.

If you want to do a WW in the JL story then have her debut in a period that's closer to the present.

[Restingvoice]

Some details may work when you look at it from a broader birds eye view point but fall apart when you get down to the granular details. I'm fine with Supes having adventures under the radar when he was a teen but stuff like WW being in WW2 has greater implications than people think. For instance, what does it mean for her supporting cast? Is Steve Trevor dead? What about her enemies? Which ones stayed in WW2 and which ones stayed in the present? What made her return to Paradise Island and not come out for decades? There is also fact that Diana's primary mission is to fight for peace and equality and it feels very cynical that somebody as powerful as her couldn't create long lasting change for Man's World. Even the movies opened up this plot hole by having her mope for decades and not doing anything of note until the magic wishing stone came about.

We've decided on the main timeline where the Trinity is only about 5-10 years younger than JSA, details pending, but for example, we're using the modern interpretation that Diana and Steve were still 18 at the youngest and he's not yet a colonel.

Then to maintain the idea that Superman is the first superhero, we're using the adventures of Superboy in Smallville.

Everyone ages slowly from the 40s to now including the supporting cast. This will allow the Trinity to be around during the WW2 era and join the JSA, Wonder Woman supporting cast from WW2 to stick around, the JSA is not centenarian, the older kids of JSA to be slightly older than Dick Grayson's generation, and the younger kids to be around Tim Drake's generation.

Other details are pending but the takeaway is all the WW2 era people will only be in their 50s-60s at most

[Dataweaver]

“We” have decided no such things.

[king81992]

So translating that to ages, The JSA is only 5-10 years older than the Trinity? They're in their 50s in the present day while the Trinity and their love interests are in their 40s, then Hal and Barry are in their 30s, Dick, Wally, and Kyle 20s?

Sounds good to me.

I would say 10-20 years older than Batman and Superman, the JSA had solo adventures before they teamed up in WW2.

Age doesn't really matter with WW, she's immortal and her career as a hero doesn't start until after she meets Steve Trevor in WW 2.

If you're going to keep all of Batman's proteges and side kicks it makes more sense for him to be in his mid 40s- mid 50s. It wouldn't be unbelievable considering the setting.

Hal and Barry would be early to late 40s.

Dick and his contemporaries could range from late 20s to late 30s.

[Factor]

Okay; here's my latest take on it:

The 20th century resembles Roy Thomas's All Star Squadron from the early 80s, and is home not only to the Justice Society and the Seven Soldiers of Victory (and, near the end, Infinity Inc), but also to heroes that had originally been published by rival companies such as Quality Comics and Fawcett Comics. It is not isolated from other worlds; but it doesn't have much interaction with them, either: there have been a few incursions from a morally mirrored Earth that featured the Crime Syndicate, and there are a number of heroes who have found their way to a Nazi-dominated Earth in an effort to liberate it from its oppressors.

(Possible revision: merge “Earth 3” and “Earth X” into a single “anti-Earth”, where the Crime Syndicate runs a totalitarian state and is trying to crush the Freedom Fighters, a team of heroes originally from Earth 0.)

But beyond that, there's very little cross-world travel, with one floating exception: starting in 1961, there's a lot of back-and-forth time travel between the 20th century and the 21st century.

As far as superheroics are concerned, the history of the 20th century runs from the late 30s/early 40s to the mid-80s; just over fifty years. Every Golden Age story happens in this timeframe, and happens concurrently with its publication date — though the specifics of what precisely happened during a given story is open to revision, so long as the broad strokes remain the same. This does include Superman debuting in 1938 and Batman in 1939, unless it process impossible to reconcile that with the 21st century. It ends in 1985, when a massive Crisis shakes the world to its core and forcibly ends the first age of heroes by permanently relocating most of the superhuman and vigilante community to the 21st century.

The 21st century begins with Year One, which is roughly 20 years before “now” — which, at the time of this posting, would put it in 2001, the actual start of the 21st century. But it's a sliding timeline, with a quartet of a year playing in universe on average for every year that passes for the publisher that means that when we get to 2025, Year One will be “21 years ago”, or 2004. Year One is Superman's modern debut, and the start of the second age of heroes. The JLA formed somewhere around Year 5; and not long after that, Barry Allen traveled back in time to 1961 and met his personal hero, Jay Garrick. Which started the frequent time travel team-ups between the premier superhero team of the 20th century, the JSA, and the premiers superhero team of the 21st century, the JLA, leading right up to the Crisis, which happened in 1985 and in Year 10 (I think). After that, the former heroes of the 20th century made the 21st century their new home.

That's the capsule summary of it. Of course, the devil is in the details; and there are a number of oddities that need to be addressed on a case by case basis. Not the least of which is the business about Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman.

I don't think this solution would really fix the aging problem, thought.
If the JSA were on the 20th century from the late 30s to 1985, they would have been active for at least 46 years before the Crisis and 15-20 years after it. That would mean the originals would be anywhere from 80 to 90 years old. Their kids would be 40 in the youngest.
That doesn't gell with most depictions of the Infinitors and wouldn't explain why the originals are still young and active any better than the current power-related excuses.

Ideally, the original JSAers should be in their 60s while their kids would be in their 20s or 30s.

[Dataweaver]

I don't think this solution would really fix the aging problem, thought.
If the JSA were on the 20th century from the late 30s to 1985, they would have been active for at least 46 years before the Crisis and 15-20 years after it. That would mean the originals would be anywhere from 80 to 90 years old. Their kids would be 40 in the youngest.
That doesn't gell with most depictions of the Infinitors and wouldn't explain why the originals are still young and active any better than the current power-related excuses.

Ideally, the original JSAers should be in their 60s while their kids would be in their 20s or 30s.

True. It keeps the problem-solving from getting worse by changing the world-merge at the end of the Crisis into a time skip; but to actually good the problem, you need to condense the 20th century timeline as well. Not as radically as the 21st century timeline, which operates on roughly a 4:1 ratio; but if you go with something that averaged around, say, a 2:1 ratio so that the 46 years from Action#1 to CoIE becomes something closer to 23 years, that should do it. That would put the 20th century side of the Crisis somewhere in the 60s. I had been hoping that the 20th century could go fully real-time; but alas, that's not to be.

[bat39]

I think now might be a good time to dust off my Earth 2 theory for the JSA again, since I feel it has the potential to address a lot of the issues you guys have been discussing.

I'm going to be a bit more elaborate this time.

Okay, so the JSA was active all through the 1940's during WW2, up till around 1951, when they were disbanded due to the House of Un-American Activities.

Sometime not long after this, some kind of event brings the JSA back together. I haven't figured out the exact nature of this threat yet. But this crisis leads to the JSA being removed from Earth 0. Either the threat (someone like Doc Manhattan maybe) purges the JSA from Earth 0 by shunting them off into another earth. Or to protect the JSA, or to protect earth from becoming a target because of the JSA, some more bening force (the early Rebirth comics hinted at Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt) sends the JSA to another earth. Either way, they're gone from Earth 0. Maybe all memory is wiped of them. Or maybe, since they had already disbanded, the world didn't notice them missing and as time went by, they faded further and further into myth (the US Government no doubt also further suppressed knowledge of the JSA's wartime activities and circumstances of their disbanding). So decades later, they are more like myths and stories - maybe inspirations for films, documentaries, conspiracy theories and of course, comic books! (the latter being read by one Barry Allen, among others).

Now, as for the JSA...they and their near and dear ones end up on another earth. Whether its some kind of artificially created realm, a pocket universe, or straight-up another earth in the Multiverse I'm not fully clear on right now. For the sake of simplicity, I'll just say its another earth that we're going to call Earth 2. The JSA themselves have no knowledge of what has happened. They just carry on living their lives on this earth. Many of them get married and start having kids.

In 1963, Jay Garrick is visited by the Flash of Earth 0, Barry Allen. Barry of course comes from what, to Jay, is the future - they chalk it up to how time runs differently on both worlds. This leads to the revival of the JSA on Earth 2, and frequent team-ups with the JLA on Earth 0 (they probably call it ''Earth One''). These team-ups continue over the course of the next 22 years for the JSA, while for the JLA, only a few years pass. By 1985, on Earth 2, the JSA heroes are in their sixties, and many of them have kids who are young adults, who form the Infinity Inc.

Then the Crisis hits, and in its aftermath, Earth 2 is either 'destroyed' or 'reabsorbed' into Earth 0. The JSA now find themselves back on Earth 0 in the 21st century. From the perspective of Earth 0, they've been missing for close to 60 years (and counting, with the sliding timescale) and have faded to myth, while for them, its only been around 30 years or so. I'm not clear on when and how they figure out that they were always from Earth 0 and who put them on Earth 2. Maybe they figure out the former after the Crisis, and the latter is something they will discover in the Infinite Frontier era.

Anyway, the end result is that the JSA is back on Earth 0. Another decade passes, during the course of which, we see the modern iterations of the team. The original JSA members are in their seventies or eighties - most of them old and retired, some of them have passed away. A few like Alan, Jay and Ted, have been kept artificially young by various means. The Infinity Inc generation are now in their late twenties or early thirties, same as the original Teen Titans generation.

Now, there are a few specific characters tied to both the JSA and JLA eras where I still need to work things out. They are:

1. Wonder Woman. This one is a bit straightforward. Diana was with the JSA in WW2 but returned to Themyscera before the early 1950's and thus wasn't sent to Earth 2 with the rest of them. Its possible however that her memories of the JSA too were suppressed when they went to Earth 2 (which explains why she didn't remember them during the JLA/JSA team-ups later). Or Diana died during whatever event sent the JSA to Earth 2 and she was resurrected on Themyscera with no memory of her past, to go to Man's World again. Or Wonder Woman does disappear from Earth 0 and go to Earth 2, but the Gods and Hippolyta, believing her dead, recreate/resurrect her and there are two Wonder Womans (and the JSA one dies during the Crisis).

2. Black Canary. This one is really tricky and I haven't figured it out to be honest. Either Dinah Laurel is a descendant of Dinah Drake (assuming Dinah Drake had a child on Earth 0 who then didn't get transported to Earth 2 in 1951), or Dinah Laurel was born on Earth 2 and moved to Earth 0 after the deaths of her parents during the JLA era. Maybe Dinah Laurel, as a child, when she developed her Canary Cry, managed to somehow break the dimensional barrier to Earth 0, but lost her memories in the process, grew up on Earth 0 believing herself to be an orphan, and only learns her true origins during the JLA/JSA team-ups? This one needs some work.

3. Power Girl. Somehow we haven't talked about her at all. Hers was already the most convoluted Post-Crisis origin of all the Earth 2 characters and its about to get worse now. I suppose the easiest thing to stick to would be ''She's a refugee from the original Pre-COIE Multiverse'' and leave it at that.'' But that doesn't do much to explain how she relates to the Earth 0 JSA (who also spent time on an Earth 2, but not necessarily the one PG came from). Another possibility is that she's native to the Earth 2 where the JSA'ers spent 30-odd years...maybe that earth had its own Superman and Lois and Krypton who resemble the classic Earth 2 versions? And that she made it to Earth 0 with them after the Crisis but unlike them, she doesn't actually belong to Earth 0? I dunno, this is a tricky one.

Thoughts?

[Dataweaver]

I will get back to the details when I have more time; but I just wanted to mention that my two centuries idea was inspired by your original suggestion for this. My thought was that the 20th century after the initial run of the JSA isn't actually being used for anything. So why not use it for what you're describing as them being banished to a pocket dimension? Same thing is what you're describing, except that the so-called pocket Dimension is in fact the rest of the 20th century. Or at least the next part of it.

[king81992]

I think now might be a good time to dust off my Earth 2 theory for the JSA again, since I feel it has the potential to address a lot of the issues you guys have been discussing.

I'm going to be a bit more elaborate this time.

Okay, so the JSA was active all through the 1940's during WW2, up till around 1951, when they were disbanded due to the House of Un-American Activities.

Sometime not long after this, some kind of event brings the JSA back together. I haven't figured out the exact nature of this threat yet. But this crisis leads to the JSA being removed from Earth 0. Either the threat (someone like Doc Manhattan maybe) purges the JSA from Earth 0 by shunting them off into another earth. Or to protect the JSA, or to protect earth from becoming a target because of the JSA, some more bening force (the early Rebirth comics hinted at Johnny Thunder's Thunderbolt) sends the JSA to another earth. Either way, they're gone from Earth 0. Maybe all memory is wiped of them. Or maybe, since they had already disbanded, the world didn't notice them missing and as time went by, they faded further and further into myth (the US Government no doubt also further suppressed knowledge of the JSA's wartime activities and circumstances of their disbanding). So decades later, they are more like myths and stories - maybe inspirations for films, documentaries, conspiracy theories and of course, comic books! (the latter being read by one Barry Allen, among others).

Now, as for the JSA...they and their near and dear ones end up on another earth. Whether its some kind of artificially created realm, a pocket universe, or straight-up another earth in the Multiverse I'm not fully clear on right now. For the sake of simplicity, I'll just say its another earth that we're going to call Earth 2. The JSA themselves have no knowledge of what has happened. They just carry on living their lives on this earth. Many of them get married and start having kids.

In 1963, Jay Garrick is visited by the Flash of Earth 0, Barry Allen. Barry of course comes from what, to Jay, is the future - they chalk it up to how time runs differently on both worlds. This leads to the revival of the JSA on Earth 2, and frequent team-ups with the JLA on Earth 0 (they probably call it ''Earth One''). These team-ups continue over the course of the next 22 years for the JSA, while for the JLA, only a few years pass. By 1985, on Earth 2, the JSA heroes are in their sixties, and many of them have kids who are young adults, who form the Infinity Inc.

Then the Crisis hits, and in its aftermath, Earth 2 is either 'destroyed' or 'reabsorbed' into Earth 0. The JSA now find themselves back on Earth 0 in the 21st century. From the perspective of Earth 0, they've been missing for close to 60 years (and counting, with the sliding timescale) and have faded to myth, while for them, its only been around 30 years or so. I'm not clear on when and how they figure out that they were always from Earth 0 and who put them on Earth 2. Maybe they figure out the former after the Crisis, and the latter is something they will discover in the Infinite Frontier era.

Anyway, the end result is that the JSA is back on Earth 0. Another decade passes, during the course of which, we see the modern iterations of the team. The original JSA members are in their seventies or eighties - most of them old and retired, some of them have passed away. A few like Alan, Jay and Ted, have been kept artificially young by various means. The Infinity Inc generation are now in their late twenties or early thirties, same as the original Teen Titans generation.

Now, there are a few specific characters tied to both the JSA and JLA eras where I still need to work things out. They are:

1. Wonder Woman. This one is a bit straightforward. Diana was with the JSA in WW2 but returned to Themyscera before the early 1950's and thus wasn't sent to Earth 2 with the rest of them. Its possible however that her memories of the JSA too were suppressed when they went to Earth 2 (which explains why she didn't remember them during the JLA/JSA team-ups later). Or Diana died during whatever event sent the JSA to Earth 2 and she was resurrected on Themyscera with no memory of her past, to go to Man's World again. Or Wonder Woman does disappear from Earth 0 and go to Earth 2, but the Gods and Hippolyta, believing her dead, recreate/resurrect her and there are two Wonder Womans (and the JSA one dies during the Crisis).

2. Black Canary. This one is really tricky and I haven't figured it out to be honest. Either Dinah Laurel is a descendant of Dinah Drake (assuming Dinah Drake had a child on Earth 0 who then didn't get transported to Earth 2 in 1951), or Dinah Laurel was born on Earth 2 and moved to Earth 0 after the deaths of her parents during the JLA era. Maybe Dinah Laurel, as a child, when she developed her Canary Cry, managed to somehow break the dimensional barrier to Earth 0, but lost her memories in the process, grew up on Earth 0 believing herself to be an orphan, and only learns her true origins during the JLA/JSA team-ups? This one needs some work.

3. Power Girl. Somehow we haven't talked about her at all. Hers was already the most convoluted Post-Crisis origin of all the Earth 2 characters and its about to get worse now. I suppose the easiest thing to stick to would be ''She's a refugee from the original Pre-COIE Multiverse'' and leave it at that.'' But that doesn't do much to explain how she relates to the Earth 0 JSA (who also spent time on an Earth 2, but not necessarily the one PG came from). Another possibility is that she's native to the Earth 2 where the JSA'ers spent 30-odd years...maybe that earth had its own Superman and Lois and Krypton who resemble the classic Earth 2 versions? And that she made it to Earth 0 with them after the Crisis but unlike them, she doesn't actually belong to Earth 0? I dunno, this is a tricky one.

Thoughts?

The world switching/dimensional shenanigans makes everything too convoluted.

If everything were kept on one Earth, I'd say make Super Girl and Power Girl the same character. Kara arrives on Earth, gets taken in by Lois and Clark, takes the mantle of Super Girl and eventually becomes Power Girl.

I don't know enough about the Black Canaries and their lore to comment on that.

Wonder Woman returning to Themyscria during the 1950s is the least convoluted option.