DC's "new" timeline revealed at NYCC

[Dataweaver]

That one was kinda weird. They split up when she became a congresswoman. Aftewards, she dated another guy. Then Jason just popped up again. I liked him when we first met him. But him showing up in the 1980s was decidedly odd to me.

Also for the bronze age, a good chunk had just one Black Canary, rather than having her as a legacy. Which I like. But do you have that BC a different one than the JSA-world one? What's the timeframe and how does it work if she did move from one world to another? JSA was less anchored when she did (at least in the writer's mind), but time keeps passing. Unless it doesn't in Bronze-age-world.

Since I have a brief moment, one more comment: a follow-up to the Bronze Age does not have to incorporate elements introduced to post crisis. There doesn't need to be a Killing Joke that paralyzes barbara; Tim may not even exist on that earth; and so on.

Also, that's a good point about black canary. If we're going to split up the continuity among four Earths, we really should keep the interactions that took place between Earth two and Earth 1985 (formerly known as Earth One). But that brings up the question of what extent if it ever interacted with Earth zero.

[MajorHoy]

That's not true. The formation of the original JSA is too anchored in WW2 and the Greatest Generation as well as their dissolution during the McCarthy Era. I think this is likely due to the work of Roy Thomas. The idea of the JSA being anchored in the "present" is just not something recognized by the majority of readers who are aware of them. Frankly setting them in the "present" doesn't work. It decontextualizes them to the point that you only have a JSA in Name Only (aka Robinson's Earth-2). The historical association of the JSA with the past is just too strong. IMO it is part of their "brand" now.

. . . When the JSA were brought back on Earth 2, it was basically as an alternate universe JLA (with a side-helping of Golden Age nostalgia of course, which back then was like the equivalent of 90's nostalgia today). Roy Thomas of course emphasized their WW2 roots more deeply in the years before COIE, and Post-COIE, once they were in the same reality as the JLA, the legacy aspect of them being WW2-era forerunners to the JLA and other modern heroes was further cemented...

One thing about the JSA and the emphasis on WWII: even before Roy Thomas started working at DC comics, Paul Levitz put his own emphasis on the ties between the JSA and WWII.
Levitz was the writer of 1977's "The Untold Origin of the Justice Society" (a story which also included The Spear of Destiny).
Levitz was also the writer of the JSA story in 1979's Adventure Comics #466 in which it was finally revealed why the Justice Society of America dropped out of sight back in the early 1950s (the HUAC hearing and the demand that the members reveal their secret identities publicly).

I don't agree with this. Wonder Woman was tied to and her reasons to going to the man's world is because of WW2. If Diana can work perfectly fine without being tied to WW2, so can the Justice Society of America. It is the fans who don't want the JSA to exist anywhere else besides WW2. Plus, most of the JSA was active before America entered the war. So, I don't see the problem.

I think a JSA can exist in the present, but they need to have their ties/origin back in WWII. If you remove that link and just have a bunch of random modern heroes calling themselves the "Justice Society of America", why even bother?

[Digifiend]

A simpler premise would be that Jay or someone else wrote comics about Jay's time as the Flash. Barry reads those comics as a child and eventually takes the mantle which leads to him meeting Jay.

Basically like Captain America at one point. He drew his own comics in-universe.

You mean just like Marvel Comics did with the origins of Captain America, Namor the Sub-Mariner, and the original Human Torch?

Yeah, those three kept their WWII origins - and have good explanations. Cap was a combination of super soldier serum and being frozen, Torch is an android, and Namor is Atlantean and they live longer than humans.

That said, adaptations like Smallville, and the CW's Stargirl (as far as I'm aware) have moved the JSA to more modern eras while keeping the legacy aspect intact up to a point. But those will always be seen as 'alternate' takes. The real JSA will always be perceived as the ones from WW2...that's just the pop-cultural niche they hold.

Yeah, Stargirl's JSA are from the 90s - a necessity because they excised the plot about the Seven Soldiers becoming time displaced, thus Pat Dugan needed to be from the modern era unlike in the comics. Their Jay Garrick Flash is the same actor who played Barry in 1990 - who also plays Jay in the current Flash show, though that version of Jay wasn't in the JSA (who in the Arrowverse ARE from World War II, as seen in Legends of Tomorrow).

[bat39]

I've got to get to work now, so I'll be dropping out for a while. But I wanted to address this before I go. I singled out the Bronze Age because to the extent that we have a current continuity, a lot of stuff from the Bronze Age doesn't fit without considerable finagling. Clark becoming a TV anchor for, I forget what the call letters were (WGBS?), but it wasn't the Daily Planet; Bruce closing up Wayne Manor and moving to an office building in downtown Gotham; Barbara becoming a Senator; Jason Todd being another circus acrobat instead of a street urchin; and so on. When the Crisis hit, all of those changes abruptly vanished and have never been reintroduced to my knowledge. So instead of trying to shoehorn them into a consistent Earth 0 history, set up a parallel history built around them.

Hmm...I get what you mean. The Bronze Age certainly deviated a bit from what we consider the 'classic' status quo of these characters.

That said, I don't think all of these are irreconcilable with current continuity.

For instance, I think it makes perfect sense that Bruce and Alfred relocated to the Wayne Foundation building for a few years while Dick was in college, before moving back shortly before Jason became Robin. Hell, I think the Foundation building years were explicitly brought up in Morrison's B & R, with Dick and Damian working out of the same building (and Batcave bunker). I honestly don't see how it contradicts any later continuity.

Clark could easily have done a stint at WGBS at some point in the years before he and Lois got together...that's assuming you want to reintegrate Superman's Pre-COIE history more substantially, rather than going off the broad Post-COIE/Pre-Flashpoint template.

Jason being a circus acrobat is already out of the picture. As is Barbara being a senator I believe. Come to think of it, I think Barbara's entire Pre-COIE history as Batgirl mostly doesn't hold up to any later version. Post-COIE, for instance, she became Batgirl as a teenager when Dick was still relatively early in his Robin career.

Hmm...maybe you do have a point about this era to some extent.

Since I have a brief moment, one more comment: a follow-up to the Bronze Age does not have to incorporate elements introduced to post crisis. There doesn't need to be a Killing Joke that paralyzes barbara; Tim may not even exist on that earth; and so on.

Also, that's a good point about black canary. If we're going to split up the continuity among four Earths, we really should keep the interactions that took place between Earth two and Earth 1985 (formerly known as Earth One). But that brings up the question of what extent if it ever interacted with Earth zero.

I'd kinda like to think that, on Earth 1985, Barbara could have become Batwoman - maybe to also honor the deceased Kathy Kane. And that circus Jason could have gone down the path to eventually becoming Batman.

So I'm guessing when you talk about splitting continuity between four earths, you mean Earth 2 (for the Golden Age), Earth 1985 (for the Bronze Age), Earth 52 (for the New 52) and Earth 0 (for everything else, which is basically the Silver Age, Post-COIE/Pre-Flashpoint, and Rebirth)?

Its an interesting notion, and I certainly support the idea of all these eras having their own earths. But I think Earth 0 continuity can't be 100% divorced from the Golden Age (because of the JSA and the legacy aspect) or the Bronze Age and New 52 (elements from both of which continue to influence the current versions of the characters). Though of course things will be different from how they were originally published.

Incidentially, Black Canary is kinda tied up with the issue of the JSA/Golden Age and its disconnect from the later eras, because Dinah Laurel Lance is the daughter of a Golden Age hero...and someone who, through her relationship with both Green Arrow, and the Birds of Prey, is inextricably tied to later eras in a way that other Golden Age legacies aren't. She somehow needs to be a peer of the JLA founders (maybe a bit younger) while also being the daughter of a JSA member.

This is where my 'Earth 2' pocket universe idea flounders a bit - since I'm not too much of a fan of the whole ''Black Canary is brainwashed into thinking she's her own mother'' idea, and I guess that's what would have been recreated under my theory. I also like the legacy aspect, and prefer the JLA's Black Canary to be her own person.

I suppose your time-skip idea could work...provided that all the time-skipped JSA members arrived around 20 years before the start of the Silver Age, giving enough time for Dinah Laurel to be born and grow up.

One thing about the JSA and the emphasis on WWII: even before Roy Thomas started working at DC comics, Paul Levitz put his own emphasis on the ties between the JSA and WWII.
Levitz was the writer of 1977's "The Untold Origin of the Justice Society" (a story which also included The Spear of Destiny).
Levitz was also the writer of the JSA story in 1979's Adventure Comics #466 in which it was finally revealed why the Justice Society of America dropped out of sight back in the early 1950s (the HUAC hearing and the demand that the members reveal their secret identities publicly).

I think a JSA can exist in the present, but they need to have their ties/origin back in WWII. If you remove that link and just have a bunch of random modern heroes calling themselves the "Justice Society of America", why even bother?

Agreed.

I think its also important as a tie to the actual history of the superhero genre as we know it, which began in the WW2 era.

[Triniking1234]

Bleeding Cool posted the full (aborted) timeline: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/firs...ine-dan-didio/

They would've used the Donna Troy was a human girl exposed to the Purple Ray origin. I wouldn't have mind that.

[Dataweaver]

Hmm...I get what you mean. The Bronze Age certainly deviated a bit from what we consider the 'classic' status quo of these characters.

That said, I don't think all of these are irreconcilable with current continuity.

For instance, I think it makes perfect sense that Bruce and Alfred relocated to the Wayne Foundation building for a few years while Dick was in college, before moving back shortly before Jason became Robin. Hell, I think the Foundation building years were explicitly brought up in Morrison's B & R, with Dick and Damian working out of the same building (and Batcave bunker). I honestly don't see how it contradicts any later continuity.

Clark could easily have done a stint at WGBS at some point in the years before he and Lois got together...that's assuming you want to reintegrate Superman's Pre-COIE history more substantially, rather than going off the broad Post-COIE/Pre-Flashpoint template.

Jason being a circus acrobat is already out of the picture. As is Barbara being a senator I believe. Come to think of it, I think Barbara's entire Pre-COIE history as Batgirl mostly doesn't hold up to any later version. Post-COIE, for instance, she became Batgirl as a teenager when Dick was still relatively early in his Robin career.

Hmm...maybe you do have a point about this era to some extent.



I'd kinda like to think that, on Earth 1985, Barbara could have become Batwoman - maybe to also honor the deceased Kathy Kane. And that circus Jason could have gone down the path to eventually becoming Batman.

So I'm guessing when you talk about splitting continuity between four earths, you mean Earth 2 (for the Golden Age), Earth 1985 (for the Bronze Age), Earth 52 (for the New 52) and Earth 0 (for everything else, which is basically the Silver Age, Post-COIE/Pre-Flashpoint, and Rebirth)?

Its an interesting notion, and I certainly support the idea of all these eras having their own earths. But I think Earth 0 continuity can't be 100% divorced from the Golden Age (because of the JSA and the legacy aspect) or the Bronze Age and New 52 (elements from both of which continue to influence the current versions of the characters). Though of course things will be different from how they were originally published.

Incidentially, Black Canary is kinda tied up with the issue of the JSA/Golden Age and its disconnect from the later eras, because Dinah Laurel Lance is the daughter of a Golden Age hero...and someone who, through her relationship with both Green Arrow, and the Birds of Prey, is inextricably tied to later eras in a way that other Golden Age legacies aren't. She somehow needs to be a peer of the JLA founders (maybe a bit younger) while also being the daughter of a JSA member.

This is where my 'Earth 2' pocket universe idea flounders a bit - since I'm not too much of a fan of the whole ''Black Canary is brainwashed into thinking she's her own mother'' idea, and I guess that's what would have been recreated under my theory. I also like the legacy aspect, and prefer the JLA's Black Canary to be her own person.

I suppose your time-skip idea could work...provided that all the time-skipped JSA members arrived around 20 years before the start of the Silver Age, giving enough time for Dinah Laurel to be born and grow up.

The thing to remember is that the original events had the Justice Society going into retirement sometime in the latter 40s/early 50s (the HUAC thing is a retcon, albeit a fitting one) and then coming out of retirement in 1961/1962 with Flash of Two Worlds and Crisis on Earth 1/2. If we set the time-skip departure in 1961 and the time-skip arrival in whatever year corresponds to Flash of Two Worlds, then everything should be solid — I think. There is one complication, and that's that Troy Thomas (I think) had Earth 2 advancing in real time instead of the sliding timeline that Earth 1 was using; so you might need to give the JSA a bit more time than the ten years that they traditionally had before their return in the Silver Age.

That said: rather than having them arrive a decade or two before Flash of Two Worlds, with all of the complications that entails, I'd rather just push back the departure date. If you need twenty years from the JSA's retirement to Flash of Two Worlds to account for their children, then just set the departure date in 1971 instead of 1961.

And yeah, my point with the four Earth continuity notion was that those three eras (the golden age, the bronze age, and The New 52) should be thought of as “secondary canon” where Earth 0's timeline is concerned: incorporate what you can from than, sure; but where conflicts arises between them and the rest of the timeline, the rest of the timeline takes precedence. If you want total fidelity to those eras, go to Earth 2, Earth 1985, or Earth 52 instead.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Original 5G's plans for Jon and Damian after being aged up in the new timeline: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dami...g-dc-universe/

[Aramis]

Maybe that's why he didn't show up at all on Future State?

[Dataweaver]

Robin Eternal made a brief reference to him, indicating something bad happened. And yeah; the plotline that was at up for him just before Death Metal ended certainly felt a lot like what they did to Cassandra Cain going out of Infinite Crisis.

Fortunately, those plans for canned along with Didio.

[Restingvoice]

That one was kinda weird. They split up when she became a congresswoman. Aftewards, she dated another guy. Then Jason just popped up again. I liked him when we first met him. But him showing up in the 1980s was decidedly odd to me.

Also for the bronze age, a good chunk had just one Black Canary, rather than having her as a legacy. Which I like. But do you have that BC a different one than the JSA-world one? What's the timeframe and how does it work if she did move from one world to another? JSA was less anchored when she did (at least in the writer's mind), but time keeps passing. Unless it doesn't in Bronze-age-world.

The details of Barbara's relationships can be re-explored and expanded by making a special feature or backup story making the change more natural.

I know nothing about Dinah Drake, but if she moved from JSA to JLA, even if it's later, then I'm going to treat her like Bruce, Clark, and Diana. They're the same generation. Dinah Lance's relevance is only in the Post Crisis world so in the Bronze Age she simply does not yet exist.

Time frame, did she moved before 1971? Then she's always JLA.

Unless during this time frame Earth 1 and 2 are still in contact. Then it's not a problem. No need to change anything.

Also, that's a good point about black canary. If we're going to split up the continuity among four Earths, we really should keep the interactions that took place between Earth two and Earth 1985 (formerly known as Earth One). But that brings up the question of what extent if it ever interacted with Earth zero.

Basically, this is what I meant.

====

Time out a bit. Back to the previous Superboy and Superman discussion because it just crossed my mind.

The priority when streamlining a continuity is Superman in Metropolis since that's the most recognizable aspect of Superman to the public. That's priority one. What's happening in Smallville is the back story leading up to that.

So choose what you like for Superman, and then work backward from there and adjust your Superboy lore.

Apply this to everyone. What's your priority here? What's your branding on these characters? Then adjust the back story and future story to fit that.

My priority for Batman is a complete Bat-family including Tynion's new additions, so I adjust every back story from the 40s to the 2000s to fit that.

[Tzigone]

I know nothing about Dinah Drake, but if she moved from JSA to JLA, even if it's later, then I'm going to treat her like Bruce, Clark, and Diana. They're the same generation. Dinah Lance's relevance is only in the Post Crisis world so in the Bronze Age she simply does not yet exist.

Time frame, did she moved before 1971? Then she's always JLA.

Dinah Drake Lance joined the JLA in an issue with a November 1969 cover date (moved earths the prior issue, when Larry died). I believe it was the issue first issue where Ollie had his goatee (also where he lost his money and his I-think-never-mentioned-before company). Right at the transition to the bronze age for the Justice League of America title, IMO.

[Bruce Wayne]

Original 5G's plans for Jon and Damian after being aged up in the new timeline: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/dami...g-dc-universe/

We dodged a bullet.

[Restingvoice]

Dinah Drake Lance joined the JLA in an issue with a November 1969 cover date (moved earths the prior issue, when Larry died). I believe it was the issue first issue where Ollie had his goatee (also where he lost his money and his I-think-never-mentioned-before company). Right at the transition to the bronze age for the Justice League of America title, IMO.

Okay, I did a quick read and you have two choices here. Keep the Earth 2 back story, or make an entirely new back story with or without Aquarius that can cause Larry's death and Drake getting her powers then joining JLA.

Basically, since the priority status quo is the Bronze Age, you can go whichever with the back story.

[MajorHoy]

Dinah Drake Lance joined the JLA in an issue with a November 1969 cover date (moved earths the prior issue, when Larry died). I believe it was the issue first issue where Ollie had his goatee (also where he lost his money and his I-think-never-mentioned-before company). Right at the transition to the bronze age for the Justice League of America title, IMO.

And Dinah also joined the Justice League shortly after Wonder Woman left to do her Mrs. Peel thing.

[Restingvoice]

So I mentioned that in streamlining the timeline you need to pick your preferred status quo and work your back story and future story from there but that's for personally preferred timeline

If you're making an encompassing timeline that as many people as possible will enjoy, then you need to compile a list of the most iconic stories that most fans agree is good, then made a timetable from there. That will be the backbone of the timeline.

Everything else besides that can be adjusted.

So I know the Krypton explosion, New Teen Titans, Batman Year One, Death, and Return of Superman, will be there, so they're the backbone and priority one. Pick the rest and construct the details.