DC's "new" timeline revealed at NYCC

[MajorHoy]

. . . So I know the Krypton explosion, New Teen Titans, Batman Year One, Death, and Return of Superman, will be there, so they're the backbone and priority one. Pick the rest and construct the details.

I wouldn't even mind dropping Batman Year One since that didn't do Catwoman or Jim Gordon any favors. (And that didn't feature Barbara as Jim's own daughter; she was the daughter of Jim's brother and Jim's sister-in-law, wasn't she back then?)

[Dataweaver]

Eh. Dropping stories you don't like is okay of how we got into this current mess. While keeping literally everything, even contradictions, is an over-correction: you can't include everything and have a single, consistent ttimeline. That said, that should be the ideal to shoot for. “X didn't happen because I don't like it” isn't a valid reason in and of itself; “X didn't happen because it conflicts with Y, and it's more important to keep Y” is better reasoning.

[DABellWrites]

There was a lot of replies to my comment. Anyways, I stand by my statement. You can totally write the JSA without the group having formed because of WW2. Aquaman debuted killing Nazis. Wonder Woman was also punching them. Superman was given the phrase "truth, justice, and the American Way" because of WW2. Almost every superhero from the golden age is tied to WW2 in a way. Yet, it's proven they're functional without keeping them tied down to their specific period in history. So why can't the JSA? I just don't get the argument "it's their thing". Yes, I've my fair share of books involving the JSA to understand the group.

Next point, we're almost a whole century separated from WW2. There's nothing wrong with cutting the JSA away from that and exploring new ideas for the team. Sure, the New52 Earth-2 flopped, but isn't the New52 frowned upon overall? So why claim one major failure is a indicator changing things up is a bad idea? And clearly keeping things as they are isn't helping comic book sales at all. Another point, if the JSA is just some legacy group at the end of the day, why bring Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and all these other characters into the present? Just keep them in the past if that's the case. Explore stories with them set in the past and the another team set in the present.

Lastly, we gotta stop thinking: "There's the Justice League" or can't do this or that because of a certain character. That kills creativity and taking risks. Which is something the comic book industry needs right now.

[DABellWrites]

I think Barbara became Batgirl about two years before Dick went to college in terms of real-world publication history. So having it happen in the same year comic-book time makes sense IMO. But yeah, it could easily have happened the previous year. My general idea was that it should happen sometime between the Teen Titans forming and Dick going to college.

As far as the NTT go, again, we could theoretically push it back a year. I just wanted to keep a bit of a gap from the OG Teen Titans.

Also, here's how I think my timeline roughly corresponds to real-world publishing history:

Years 1-6: 1938-1956 (Golden Age)

Years 6-8: 1956-1971 (Silver Age)

Years 8-11: 1971-1986 (Bronze Age)

Years 11-16: 1986-2006 (Post-Crisis)

Years 16-18: 2006-2011 (Pre-Flashpoint)

Years 18-21: 2011-2016 (New 52)

Years 21-22: 2016-2021 (Rebirth)

Yes, I know the JLA was a rebooted JSA. I know my history. Just to let you know, I don't like Earth-2. I think the whole concept is stupid and shouldn't even be considered the original "golden age" characters anymore.

[Dataweaver]

I'll just say this: you can't leave the JSA in the past, because they weren't left in the past. You're talking as of you have cart blanch to do whatever you want with the IP; but that's the other part that got us into this mess. The purpose here, as I see it, isn't just to “come up with a new timeline”; it's to do so in a way that treats what's come before with respect.

[Restingvoice]

I wouldn't even mind dropping Batman Year One since that didn't do Catwoman or Jim Gordon any favors. (And that didn't feature Barbara as Jim's own daughter; she was the daughter of Jim's brother and Jim's sister-in-law, wasn't she back then?)

That goes under detail adjustment. Batman Year One can be canon but Barbara is still James' daughter because her parental status and her own story don't affect Batman Year One plot since she's like... I don't know... 10-15 years old at that point.

As for James' affair and whatever Selina did... the discussion will be based on where you want them to be from then on until now, and how those backstories affect their portrayal.

In my personal timeline, since I want both elements from Year One and Zero Year to be canon, I'm already adjusting it. The public timeline is whatever. I'm not DC's primary target audience, so I'll just follow whatever anyone decides, as long as it makes sense.

Yes, I know the JLA was a rebooted JSA. I know my history. Just to let you know, I don't like Earth-2. I think the whole concept is stupid and shouldn't even be considered the original "golden age" characters anymore.

Just curious, why is it stupid?

[Tzigone]

I wouldn't even mind dropping Batman Year One since that didn't do Catwoman or Jim Gordon any favors. (And that didn't feature Barbara as Jim's own daughter; she was the daughter of Jim's brother and Jim's sister-in-law, wasn't she back then?)

I agree. I really don't care for it. But if we're going for what most fans like, can't deny it's on the list. Likewise, I do no want Alfred raising Bruce, but many do.

I particularly, strongly, dislike Batman motivating Selina to be Catwoman. Instead of it being entirely her own idea. It makes him part of her formative identity, and her not part of his, and since it's in-universe, it sets them up always unequal. I also don't like James Jr. existing, and, of course, he was completely (or almost completely) unmentioned for a while. And frankly, there are several other elements of Batman's backstory here that aren't really consistent with other versions I liked more (and I don't like hellscape Gotham). Plus it more favors the grim & gritty version that does not suit me.

[witchboy]

That goes under detail adjustment. Batman Year One can be canon but Barbara is still James' daughter because her parental status and her own story don't affect Batman Year One plot since she's like... I don't know... 10-15 years old at that point.

As for James' affair and whatever Selina did... the discussion will be based on where you want them to be from then on until now, and how those backstories affect their portrayal.

In my personal timeline, since I want both elements from Year One and Zero Year to be canon, I'm already adjusting it. The public timeline is whatever. I'm not DC's primary target audience, so I'll just follow whatever anyone decides, as long as it makes sense.



Just curious, why is it stupid?

Year One brings up a lot of mixed emotions. There's parts of the story that are good. Frank Miller writing most of his women as prostitutes wasn't established quite yet then, but it is a thing now. Selina being inspired by Batman robs her of a lot of her agency. When I re-read Year One I pair it with Catwoman Her Sister's Keeper, which gives it a better balance.
When Year One came out I was mad that they went out of their way to erase Barbara. DC shouldn't have let Miller do it, as obviously before too long they wanted to use her and had to bring her in through convoluted and less satisfying ways. It shows a short sightedness from DC.

[Restingvoice]

I agree. I really don't care for it. But if we're going for what most fans like, can't deny it's on the list. Likewise, I do no want Alfred raising Bruce, but many do.

I particularly, strongly, dislike Batman motivating Selina to be Catwoman. Instead of it being entirely her own idea. It makes him part of her formative identity, and her not part of his, and since it's in-universe, it sets them up always unequal. I also don't like James Jr. existing, and, of course, he was completely (or almost completely) unmentioned for a while. And frankly, there are several other elements of Batman's backstory here that aren't really consistent with other versions I liked more (and I don't like hellscape Gotham). Plus it more favors the grim & gritty version that does not suit me.

Year One brings up a lot of mixed emotions. There's parts of the story that are good. Frank Miller writing most of his women as prostitutes wasn't established quite yet then, but it is a thing now. Selina being inspired by Batman robs her of a lot of her agency. When I re-read Year One I pair it with Catwoman Her Sister's Keeper, which gives it a better balance.
When Year One came out I was mad that they went out of their way to erase Barbara. DC shouldn't have let Miller do it, as obviously before too long they wanted to use her and had to bring her in through convoluted and less satisfying ways. It shows a short sightedness from DC.

Since y'all are the long-time fans and primary target audience, I'll follow. I'm casual.

Therefore, edited Batman Year One.

I already mentioned the edit for Barbara, she's the daughter and moved alongside them to Gotham, she's just not involved because she's still young at that time.

So now for Selina. Okay, so she's not inspired by Batman. What's the cause? I only know the other versions of why she became a thief, but not why she picked a cat mask and when. Well, I guess she just like cats so you don't need Batman for that.

After you pick your preferred origin of donning the costume, see if you can or want to include Holly, Maggie, and East End, Carmine Falcone, and the first meeting with Bruce in there.

The pimp Stan is an extension of Holly's backstory so we don't need him for Selina. She can confront him anytime she wanna save Holly.

About Alfred, yeah, that's the one thing I don't think can be fulfilled since Alfred as Bruce's caretaker is already too iconic that there's no more depiction of Bruce being raised by Uncle Phillip.

DC Comics tone is all over the place so I just ignore it.

[Factor]

I do think the JSA can work without the WWII connection, but wouldn't the DCU feel like a less historied place without it?
Removing the JSA from WWII would leave a pretty big void in the DCU's history. It would be like Marvel without Captain America and the Invaders.
The best solution to the JSA problem is to have them timetravel to around the time Kal-El's rocket landed on Earth, so the Infinity Inc characters could be around the Titans' ages. I know most of the popular OG JSAers that are still around have power-related excuses for not aging as much, but the likes of Hour Man, Liberty Belle, Atom, Black Canary and Starman still create problems because their kids are all around the League's ages.

[Aahz]

Where would you have to put in "Zero Year" on the timeline to still work as Origin for Duke?
With him being 10 in the story, and not much younger than Tim in the current continuity, I think it would need to fall either in the "penthouse era" or in Jason's time as Robin.

[Restingvoice]

Where would you have to put in "Zero Year" on the timeline to still work as Origin for Duke?
With him being 10 in the story, and not much younger than Tim in the current continuity, I think it would need to fall either in the "penthouse era" or in Jason's time as Robin.

Tim was 13 to 17 in Post Crisis and Damian was 10 -14 from the end of Post Crisis to Infinite Frontier. That's the time frame.
Zero Year took place 6 years before the beginning of New 52, but at the beginning of New 52, Damian was still 10, and if Tim's age wasn't reset, he'd still be 17 going on 18.

Counting backward, Zero Year should take place when Tim was 11. 2 years before A Lonely Place of Dying.

Jason is often said to die at 15 but could be younger so 2 years before that, he was 13, 1 year after he was found by Bruce.

I want Bruce to be alone vs The Riddler to make the fewest change possible. There are two ways for this.

One, Jason is not yet Robin. Bruce hasn't even found him. Instead of dying at 15, he died at 14. He was found at age 12. Just after Zero Year.

Two, Jason is already found by Bruce at age 12, but sent to Ma Gunn's school and stayed there for a year. At the end of Zero Year, Bruce adopted him at age 13.

Dick is over in New York with Titans either way. He's not a problem.

Also, the Zero Year that happened 6 years ago is specifically the Savage City part versus The Riddler, since Joker's already operating at this point, and the story of Red Hood Gang and Red Hood One has to happen years ago.

[bat39]

Tim was 13 to 17 in Post Crisis and Damian was 10 -14 from the end of Post Crisis to Infinite Frontier. That's the time frame.
Zero Year took place 6 years before the beginning of New 52, but at the beginning of New 52, Damian was still 10, and if Tim's age wasn't reset, he'd still be 17-18.

Counting backward, Zero Year should take place when Tim was 10-11. 2-3 years before A Lonely Place of Dying.
Jason, let's make it easy and say he died at 15, give or take, so 2-3 years before that, he was 12, the beginning of his Robin year.

So to make things easy, Zero Year happened during the time Dick was in New York with New Teen Titans, and Jason was not yet recruited to be Robin. That's how you get Bruce alone vs The Riddler.

Just specifically the Savage City part versus The Riddler, since Joker's already operating at this point, and the story of Red Hood Gang and Red Hood One has to happen years ago.

Yeah, something like that makes sense.

[Bruce Wayne]

I do think the JSA can work without the WWII connection, but wouldn't the DCU feel like a less historied place without it?

It would basically be Robinson's Earth-2, but set in the mainline continuity. It basically destroys a huge chunk of the mythology and allure of the JSA just for the sake of "continuity", a fluid concept that only has a value to a small minority.

I wouldn't even mind dropping Batman Year One since that didn't do Catwoman or Jim Gordon any favors. (And that didn't feature Barbara as Jim's own daughter; she was the daughter of Jim's brother and Jim's sister-in-law, wasn't she back then?)

And this is how we got into the mess with over a decade of Didio trying to undo stuff that he personally didn't care for such as Wally being the Flash or Cassandra Cain Batman. Or how the 80s/90s regime at DC got rid of the GLC, the multiverse, and the Kara Zor-el Superman because of their own personal tastes. Did the fandom learn nothing from the past 4 decades?

[Tzigone]

And this is how we got into the mess with over a decade of Didio trying to undo stuff that he personally didn't care for such as Wally being the Flash or Cassandra Cain Batman. Or how the 80s/90s regime at DC got rid of the GLC, the multiverse, and the Kara Zor-el Superman because of their own personal tastes. Did the fandom learn nothing from the past 4 decades?

If you are starting from scratch, you have to pick what to keep and what to discard, because it can't all be kept. I think as long as you stick to what you pick, then you don't get the problems. The issue is which to pick. As state above, going with what's most popular is the probably biggest win there. But you have to start with what you want it to be in the present. And I admit I basically don't want anything of Year One in the present. So I could do that. If I had the power to make other writers stick to it. I just don't have that power. They could certainly get a very functional, consistent universe picking mostly things I didn't like. But then I wouldn't want to read it. But if the majority did want to read it (or it appealed to the casual market or a new bigger, market of hardcores), that's a win for DC.