DC's "new" timeline revealed at NYCC

[king81992]

Yeah, honestly, given Damian's age, less than 20 years (I go with 21) just doesn't work. Ditto with Jon's (chronological) age frankly.

You could say that Batman slept with Talia in Year 1, or Clark and Lois got married pretty early in Superman's career, but it just doesn't do justice to the original stories and the characters as originally presented. That's before you get into all the other chronological conundrums.

I'm okay with superheroes being in their forties. Let's face it, most superhero actors are in their forties, or getting there. If a 45 year old Ben Affleck could be seen kicking ass on-screen, then why can't we accept a 45 year old Bruce Wayne in comics, where suspension of disbelief is even stronger?

I always felt like people's weird reluctance to have a mid 40s to early 50s Batman(and heroes in general) is because they think it'll make the comics 'too much like anime and manga'.

[DABellWrites]

The world switching/dimensional shenanigans makes everything too convoluted.

If everything were kept on one Earth, I'd say make Super Girl and Power Girl the same character. Kara arrives on Earth, gets taken in by Lois and Clark, takes the mantle of Super Girl and eventually becomes Power Girl.

I don't know enough about the Black Canaries and their lore to comment on that.

Wonder Woman returning to Themyscria during the 1950s is the least convoluted option.

Simple. Back in the 70s (whenever Diana went Mod) or early 80s, there was one Black Canary. Dinah Lance. Her husband died in a JLA/JSA crossover and she left for Earth-1. Sometime into the 80s or late-70s, it was retconed (in the most convoluted way possible), that the long-time member of the JLA was in fact the daughter! Her mother and father died (I forgot how, it was a mess, read the wikipedia page), and she somehow got her mother's memories. So, Ollie was dating the original Black Canary that was retconed into the daughter. Post-Crisis beautifully fixed it and then the New52 screwed it up.

[witchboy]

Simple. Back in the 70s (whenever Diana went Mod) or early 80s, there was one Black Canary. Dinah Lance. Her husband died in a JLA/JSA crossover and she left for Earth-1. Sometime into the 80s or late-70s, it was retconed (in the most convoluted way possible), that the long-time member of the JLA was in fact the daughter! Her mother and father died (I forgot how, it was a mess, read the wikipedia page), and she somehow got her mother's memories. So, Ollie was dating the original Black Canary that was retconed into the daughter. Post-Crisis beautifully fixed it and then the New52 screwed it up.

I always thought it was really weird that Dinah II had the memories of Dinah I. That means she had memories of being in love with and married to her father.
Years before the retcon Dinah II had a brief relationship with the Earth 1 version of her father, who turned out to be a bad guy.

[DABellWrites]

It would basically be Robinson's Earth-2, but set in the mainline continuity. It basically destroys a huge chunk of the mythology and allure of the JSA just for the sake of "continuity", a fluid concept that only has a value to a small minority.

Mythology is not strict canon like modern stories are. I never get the whole "mythos" and "mythology" argument. If the that was ever important, DC wouldn't no need to reboot their continuity every so often. But, DC doesn't care about it. So, they're now doing Infinite Frontier.

And this is how we got into the mess with over a decade of Didio trying to undo stuff that he personally didn't care for such as Wally being the Flash or Cassandra Cain Batman. Or how the 80s/90s regime at DC got rid of the GLC, the multiverse, and the Kara Zor-el Superman because of their own personal tastes. Did the fandom learn nothing from the past 4 decades?

To be honest, I believe that was EVS and Geoff Johns were the masterminds behind Barry. Didio, just took the fall when the fans didn't like the change. Did Dan Didio put his fingers into? Yeah, probably. Honestly, the multiverse was better being gone. There was no real lost with it being destroyed during the COIE. Aside from Elseworlds and "crisis" events, how has the multiverse benefited DC? As for Kara, I'm mixed. On one hand, I'm okay with it since Superman doesn't need Kara. Kara needs Superman. On the other hand, I can understand why fans were upset. Anyways, GLC by 1994 was poor in sales. Putting Kyle on the book was a financial decision. Just like they did with Wally as the Flash. Could DC had done something different? Yep. But, DC is a machine, they have to make decisions, not all of it will be good.

[John Venus]

To be honest, I believe that was EVS and Geoff Johns were the masterminds behind Barry. Didio, just took the fall when the fans didn't like the change. Did Dan Didio put his fingers into? Yeah, probably. Honestly, the multiverse was better being gone. There was no real lost with it being destroyed during the COIE. Aside from Elseworlds and "crisis" events, how has the multiverse benefited DC?

Nah, it was Didio. You should have seen Didio's DC Nation column back when Flash: Rebirth. He admitted that bringing back the Silver Age characters was a big part of his agenda and even referred to Johns as his right hand man. Bringing back Ollie, Hal, was the slow road towards them finally being able to bring back Barry.

The Multiverse was used in 52 and Johns JSA run but they didn't make much use of it. Remember Didio also killed Elseworlds because he didn't see the point of having a line of books exploring things that were impossible to do in the main line and he felt all the important things should have happened on the main earth.

[Bruce Wayne]

To be honest, I believe that was EVS and Geoff Johns were the masterminds behind Barry.

That's not true at all! Didio literally takes credit for it in his letter column in the last Flash issue (for Wally) before Flash Rebirth in gleefully confessing that it was something he wanted to do when he first arrived at DC (along with returning Hal as GL). The pitch was EVS's idea according to EVS's own confession. We known Johns only signed on because he was promised a Flash book starring both Wally/Barry as well as a Kid-Flash book for Sterling Gates. Promises that Didio later reneged on (much like his treatment of Rucka on E1 WW).

[DABellWrites]

Nah, it was Didio. You should have seen Didio's DC Nation column back when Flash: Rebirth. He admitted that bringing back the Silver Age characters was a big part of his agenda and even referred to Johns as his right hand man. Bringing back Ollie, Hal, was the slow road towards them finally being able to bring back Barry.

The Multiverse was used in 52 and Johns JSA run but they didn't make much use of it. Remember Didio also killed Elseworlds because he didn't see the point of having a line of books exploring things that were impossible to do in the main line and he felt all the important things should have happened on the main earth.

I will admit Didio did have his fingers into the New52 with certain ideas, but from how readers discuss about Didio, you'd think the man was supervillain from a comic book. Almost every bad idea is Didio and the writers just suffer under him. Yet, look at the things that Didio that were good. Was 5G a bad idea? Yes, very much.
Anyways, it's this supervillain persona Didio gained over the years that makes me skeptical of Barry Allen being his idea.

[DABellWrites]

I always thought it was really weird that Dinah II had the memories of Dinah I. That means she had memories of being in love with and married to her father.
Years before the retcon Dinah II had a brief relationship with the Earth 1 version of her father, who turned out to be a bad guy.

Sometimes, you gotta wonder why it wasn't retconed that Dinah I left for Earth-2 sometime during All-Star Squadron. She lost her memories of her daughter who was still on Earth-2 with Infinity, Inc. Who raised Dinah Drake? It could've been Wonder Woman since she was and Dinah were best friends originally and active members of the JSA.
Why she didn't age? Well, they age slower on Earth-1. Done.
This can work in an elseworld though.

[MajorHoy]

I always thought it was really weird that Dinah II had the memories of Dinah I. That means she had memories of being in love with and married to her father.
Years before the retcon Dinah II had a brief relationship with the Earth 1 version of her father, who turned out to be a bad guy.

It was actually sort of creepy.
But when they came up with retconning it so that the then "present day" Dinah was actually the daughter of Golden Age Dinah, they were trying to explain why a woman in 1983 looked like she hadn't aged in 35 years and for the past fourteen years had thought, talked, and acted like she was the same woman who had started her superhero career in 1947.

Sometimes, you gotta wonder why it wasn't retconed that Dinah I left for Earth-2 sometime during All-Star Squadron. She lost her memories of her daughter who was still on Earth-2 with Infinity, Inc. Who raised Dinah Drake? It could've been Wonder Woman since she was and Dinah were best friends originally and active members of the JSA.
Why she didn't age? Well, they age slower on Earth-1. Done.
This can work in an elseworld though.

Dinah had never been a member of the All-Star Squadron in the past. She historically didn't make her first appearance until 1947, two years after the end of WWII.

[witchboy]

It was actually sort of creepy.
But when they came up with retconning it so that the then "present day" Dinah was actually the daughter of Golden Age Dinah, they were trying to explain why a woman in 1983 looked like she hadn't aged in 35 years and for the past fourteen years had thought, talked, and acted like she was the same woman who had started her superhero career in 1947.

Dinah had never been a member of the All-Star Squadron in the past. She historically didn't make her first appearance until 1947, two years after the end of WWII.

It does strain credibility that 70 and early 80s Dinah II was passing for her own mother. She was in her early twenties and her friends all thought she was pushing 50. That detail is glaringly weird even for comic books,

[Tzigone]

Yeah, well there was some retconning there by someone somewhere along the line. When Dinah first crossed universes, she was likely mid to late 30s (Larry Lance's tombstone said he was born in 1930) and then would have aged the same one year all other heroes did while Dick was in college in the 1970s. Then things got more certain (again?) on the JSA not sliding and staying in the 1940s origin. Though that had some issues as well (Batman's daughter and Superman's cousin shouldn't be young adults at the same time, etc.). Anyway, most people like the post-COIE daughter story, whereas I prefer the one-Dinah story. I especially dislike the daughter story because (particularly pre-COIE, but still a problem for me later, despite excuses for JSA non-aging), it's just kicking the can down the road. TPTB know at this point that heroes last decades and the one day not only will daughter of 1940s heroine not make sense, granddaughter won't even make sense. Also, as others have said, the pre-COIE version with the memories is just creepy.

[MajorHoy]

Yeah, well there was some retconning there by someone somewhere along the line. When Dinah first crossed universes, she was likely mid to late 30s (Larry Lance's tombstone said he was born in 1930) . . .

You sure that's "1930"?

It looks more like a "1920" to me.

[Tzigone]

You sure that's "1930"?

It looks more like a "1920" to me.

Look like 1930 to me (am on phone right now, but zoomed in and can see curve/middle bit), as it did when I read it originally. But your mileage may vary. Reading text in images on comics can be a guessing game sometimes.

1920 would certainly make sense with original timeline, though. I do prefer the JSA on Earth Two (with Superman and other surviving golden age characters). Crossovers can get a bit weird, though, when Barry has aged 3 years (Wally from month grade to twelfth) and Jay's aged 8...or 18. Th '70s were one year in DC verse.

[Robanker]

Nah, it was Didio. You should have seen Didio's DC Nation column back when Flash: Rebirth. He admitted that bringing back the Silver Age characters was a big part of his agenda and even referred to Johns as his right hand man. Bringing back Ollie, Hal, was the slow road towards them finally being able to bring back Barry.

The Multiverse was used in 52 and Johns JSA run but they didn't make much use of it. Remember Didio also killed Elseworlds because he didn't see the point of having a line of books exploring things that were impossible to do in the main line and he felt all the important things should have happened on the main earth.

Man, I still remember reading that DC Nation. He was gleefully gloating over Wally's fresh irrelevance, and not long after New 52 removed Wally entirely. There were talks of a second Flash book, "Speed Force," but obviously that went the way of the dodo as well.

[bat39]

It does strain credibility that 70 and early 80s Dinah II was passing for her own mother. She was in her early twenties and her friends all thought she was pushing 50. That detail is glaringly weird even for comic books,

I think its possible that the Ian Karkull story (which we've so far forgotten to mention on this thread) comes into play. Maybe they assumed that she still looked young because of exposure to Ian Karkull's energies? The same reason why the other JSA members physically still looked 40ish when they should have been pushing 70 by the time COIE came around. Though I don't remember now if Dinah Drake was an active hero when the JSA encountered Karkull.

That's the problem with DC's retcons, particularly when it comes to the JSA. They come up with multiple explanations for the same things (or sometimes different things that overlap) which confuses things further.

Why is Jay Garrick still relatively youthful? Is it because of the Speed Force? Ian Karkull? Spending time in Limbo? All of the above?

Power Girl is another prime example. After COIE, they 'revealed' she's an Atlantean who was only tricked into believing she was Superman's cousin. O-kay. But the weird part is, immediately after COIE, Power Girl actually remembered all about Earth 2 and Kal-L. Are we meant to believe that she thought her life on Earth 2 was a fake memory?

Then later, we learn that she was a backstory in the Post-COIE timeline of arriving on earth and being found by Kal-El and believing she was his cousin before tests showed she was wrong. And that the Atlantis origin is a lie. Okay...but what about Earth 2? Did she remember it or not?

And then we learn she's from Earth 2 after all, and a survivor of the previous continuity who gets her memories back. Fair enough...but does she now have two memories of coming to earth? Does she remember arriving on Earth 2 in the 1970's and on New Earth in, I dunno, the 90's or early 2000's? Did her ship just magically appear in space in the context of New Earth?

Then there's the Crisis was handled itself in a Post-COIE context. First the heroes at the Dawn of Time were supposed to remember everything. That was quickly ignored. But there were still allusions to a Crisis in the new timeline. So did COIE happen as published, and the Post-COIE versions just vaguely remember the multiversal event? Or was there a new limited version of Crisis that affected only the Post-COIE earth? Both explanations seem to apply...

And now my head hurts!