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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    We don't see the world going on a divergent path because mainstream comics are always stuck in "the now." However, we do have the entire pre-COIE history of the Legion which shows the eventual outcome of superheroes emerging in the public and removing "normalcy" from the world. Superman is the most prominent in that age, because they are a spin off of his property, and is directly cited as their inspiration. Even in the present, public superhuman appearances and battles are not actually a thing the world is widely aware of until Superman and his generation (whether or not he is actually the first or they all appear around the same time), so yes we see the world change after that.
    Quite frankly, I don't remember a really relevant story which focused on this "divergent timeline where superhero exist and the different evolution of this world" thing. Not in the way Kurt Busiek did with Marvels or similar stories in the Marvel Universe. The US where Superman appears in Man of Steel if not that different from the real US in the 1980s, even if in that world the JSA HAD existed in the 1930s.
    There have been vague hints, completely irrelevant in the greater scheme, and some of them were also out-of-continuity stories like All-Star Superman. In general, DC stories have never been about a divergent reality where society evolved in a different way because of superpowers. Generally speaking, they are just the adventures of superpowered beings in a world which resembles ours. If they wanted to do something along the lines of the alternate reality, I'd say they could and maybe this new timeline is a good start for that.


    Are those all you got?
    Well. No. I could also add that at one point they brutally eliminated important characters like Batgirl (who would probably be in a wheelchair if not for nostalgic fans or writers). But the list could really go on. I mean, basically the entirety of what had been introduced in the Silver Age started getting removed when Dennis O'Neil came on board in the 1970s.
    Supporting the theory that Batman didn't have as many elements removed as Superman is debatable to say the least. In the mid80s Batman was completely different character from the one who had been in the stories 20 years before. Stories like Dark Knight Returns just focus on some basic elements, with zero references to Silver Age silliness, while others like Year One focus on elements which hadn't been really explored up to then (like Gordon) or radically change others (Catwoman as a prostitute).

    Removing elements or respecting the order these superheroes appeared in real life, or even their original conception, is relatively unimportant as long as you know what you are doing with them. Batman has simply been in better stories than Superman when the time for making him evolve was the right one. Superman was more or less left at the standing post.


    Literally everything about them is still naive and simplistic.
    Ok. Let me rephrase that. There are some dumb, silly elements which couldn't be reintroduced the way they were because in that regard modern superhero comic books don't allow that, even if they may be dumb as far as other aspects are concerned.

    Neither is the meta commentary on Jay Garrick coming before Barry Allen, and therefore the JSA needs to be the inspiration of the JLA in-universe the way it was in the real world.
    But you also said the in-story explanation that reflected reality (Barry patterning himself off of Jay, whom he read in a comic book and Establishment the Earth-1/2 divide) was silly, so that doesn't seem very coherent.
    Maybe my point isn't clear. As far as I am concerned, they could have a JSA-less earth or even a Jay Garrick-less one. I don't care. You can do good things with both. And potentially you can have an excellent DCU without Superman being the first hero. There are narrative justifications for him being the first hero and there are narrative justifications for him NOT being the first hero. But nothing is objective in that regard. Heck, you could also say that by starting their new timeline with Krypton exploding in 1938 (if THAT is what they are going for) is, in fact, a way to pay homage to Action Comics 1. There is no right answer nor anything that "has" to be. It's just about tastes and the way they deal with these elements in proper stories.
    Last edited by Myskin; 10-06-2019 at 11:33 AM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    There logically wouldn't be important scenes of Superman being the first superhero post-COIE because he lost the status. They got more serious about timelines just as they were making it more convoluted, so they've never been very good at it (hello Wonder Woman and Donna Troy). The various changes brought about by COIE, both to Superman and the wider DCU, actually did more damage to their universe than before it was "fixed."

    Superman's arrival is meant to herald the age of superheroes. He's just not quite as impressive if he shows up and there is already a long history of superhumans before him. He is the main one to inspire the Legion. Do they just not care about anything that came before him? None of it must have been that impressive if Superman is getting all the attention. From both a meta sense and (for a time) in-universe sense, most of this doesn't exist without him. Claiming the JSA are elder statesmen that inspired him and his generation reads as very false when you look at the actual history. He directly inspired the creation of all those other characters out of universe, which is represented in a meta sense by him preceding them publicly in universe. This does not mean anyone is calling for him to somehow be involved with Abin Sur crashing, or for Diana to be aware of him before coming to Man's World, or for Bruce to not decide to be a vigilante before he learns of Superman, etc. If they are not impacted much (if at all) by him being first, they are not exactly harmed by him being first either.
    But there were no stories about Superman's importance as the 'first' superhero before COIE either, when he supposedly held that status. Hell, it was at least officially stated that he was the first 'modern' hero Post-COIE...no such statement was made Pre-COIE to my knowledge (apart from the one panel I mentioned which claims that Earth 2 Superman was the "first hero on any earth").

    On the subject of the LOSH...they have never been inspired by him because he was the 'first' superhero. They were inspired by him because he was an alien who became a great hero on earth and served humanity. And also because, from a 31st century perspective, he's considered to be the greatest superhero in history. The LOSH may be aware of the likes of Alan Scott and Jay Garrick and the fact that they were around before Superman, but Superman is the one who inspired them.

    I'm personally in favor of the idea of Superman's debut being a game-changing moment and heralding the beginning of a new heroic age. In fact, I kinda wish someone does an actual story on that idea. That said, I don't think it diminishes Superman if other heroes were active before him in some way or form - even from the same generation. I like the idea of Batman being around before Clark made his debut as Superman. Batman would be an urban myth at that point, a vigilante who's existence is not even widely known of outside Gotham. I think Arthur Curry could already have been saving people's lives for year on the seas and built up a reputation as the mythical 'Aquaman' before the world heard of Superman. Hell, Hal Jordan could even have become GL and started his training on Oa before Superman showed up.

  3. #123
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    Now that I think about it, there is one DC series which largely focuses on the world of superheroes as a divergent reality, especially in terms of how culture changed thanks to the presence of heroes... And that's James Robinson's Starman. And it works exactly because it takes place in a world where the JSA were the patriarchs of the heroic age in the 1930s and you have people like Batman and Superman in the modern era.

    Quite frankly, an excellent work as Starman is a good reason to make the JSA the first heroes on DC earth, rather than Superman.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  4. #124
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Quite frankly, I don't remember a really relevant story which focused on this "divergent timeline where superhero exist and the different evolution of this world" thing. Not in the way Kurt Busiek did with Marvels or similar stories in the Marvel Universe. The US where Superman appears in Man of Steel if not that different from the real US in the 1980s, even if in that world the JSA HAD existed in the 1930s.
    A timeline isn't going to diverge from ours because Superman and the JL typically debut in the vague "now" and nothing ever advances beyond that. Societies change gradually, but mainstream comics don't like to go beyond a certain point. It's pretty much a given that the world will change due to the JL appearing as we eventually get to the Legion, but we're never going to actually get there. At least not unless this "President Superman" stuff sticks.
    The JSA not changing things even when they are on the same Earth is a pretty good indicator that they don't need to be there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Well. No. I could also add that at one point they brutally eliminated important characters like Batgirl (who would probably be in a wheelchair if not for nostalgic fans or writers). But the list could really go on. I mean, basically the entirety of what had been introduced in the Silver Age started getting removed when Dennis O'Neil came on board in the 1970s.
    Sorry, but I don't really think that's a good example. Batgirl was introduced in the late Silver age and lasted throughout the Bronze age even after O'Neil's arrival. She was not purged by COIE. While they crippled the character, it happened within the confines of continuity. She still had her history even if she was put into a temporary limbo. Compare that to Kara, who was a pretty major supporting character for Clark, and who got erased from existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Supporting the theory that Batman didn't have as many elements removed as Superman is debatable to say the least. In the mid80s Batman was completely different character from the one who had been in the stories 20 years before. Stories like Dark Knight Returns just focus on some basic elements, with zero references to Silver Age silliness, while others like Year One focus on elements which hadn't been really explored up to then (like Gordon) or radically change others (Catwoman as a prostitute).
    Not really. The extremes of Miller's TDKR didn't take hold in the regular continuity right away. Batman started getting darker in the 80s, but that was just a continuation of the gradual process that began in the late 60s and continued into the 70s. He was already less campy and more in line with how he would be later before COIE even happened. Nothing in Year One is as drastic as Kara bring wiped from existence, the Legion connection being severed, the Kents being alive or Lex and Brainiac's overhauls. Or even worse over in the WW corner, where Steve and Etta were altered beyond recognition, the Amazons lost their technology, and Diana's debut happened much later in the timeline with the infamous and drastic domino effect that had on Donna Troy. And Superman and Wonder Woman are plagued by reboots and retcons more than Batman, which is one of the reasons his mythos is overall stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Removing elements or respecting the order these superheroes appeared in real life, or even their original conception, is relatively unimportant as long as you know what you are doing with them. Batman has simply been in better stories than Superman when the time for making him evolve was the right one. Superman was more or less left at the standing post.
    I really don't think it's one or the other. It happening all at once is what was damaging. The latter is worse, but the former isn't helping things at all.

    Him being first is the least important of these milestones perhaps and the one I'd be fine without. But I feel if an inch is given with these things, DC always takes a mile. First he's not the first superhero. Then he can't have a connection to the Legion. Then it has to be questioned if he's even the most powerful hero anymore to the point where we have to entertain the fact that his spinoff character might be stronger than he is. He and and Batman have both been simplified down to the insipid "light vs. darkness" stuff that does neither of them any favors. None of it may be a big deal on their own, but added together it can be too much and can influence DC into thinking he's not as big of a deal both in universe and out of universe, which feeds into how they write him, which feeds into how fans react to the writing and form opinions on the character, which all leads to a circular situation and self fulfilling prophecy.

    I want a creator who just puts Clark first and doesn't give up any of this stuff for the benefit of other franchises that don't even need it. I don't think Bendis is that guy if he's giving the Legion to Jon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Maybe my point isn't clear. As far as I am concerned, they could have a JSA-less earth or even a Jay Garrick-less one. I don't care. You can do good things with both. And potentially you can have an excellent DCU without Superman being the first hero. There are narrative justifications for him being the first hero and there are narrative justifications for him NOT being the first hero. But nothing is objective in that regard. Heck, you could also say that by starting their new timeline with Krypton exploding in 1938 (if THAT is what they are going for) is, in fact, a way to pay homage to Action Comics 1. There is no right answer nor anything that "has" to be. It's just about tastes and the way they deal with these elements in proper stories.
    Fair enough. JSA on the main Earth can work, it's just that I haven't encountered a take on it that works for me yet. At least because all this other crap is going on in the Superman mythos that the JSA being first stings more than maybe ought to.

    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    But there were no stories about Superman's importance as the 'first' superhero before COIE either, when he supposedly held that status. Hell, it was at least officially stated that he was the first 'modern' hero Post-COIE...no such statement was made Pre-COIE to my knowledge (apart from the one panel I mentioned which claims that Earth 2 Superman was the "first hero on any earth").
    Maybe it wasn't said much because it was treated as pretty much a given? The JSA weren't around on Earth-1, so I dunno.

    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I'm personally in favor of the idea of Superman's debut being a game-changing moment and heralding the beginning of a new heroic age. In fact, I kinda wish someone does an actual story on that idea. That said, I don't think it diminishes Superman if other heroes were active before him in some way or form - even from the same generation. I like the idea of Batman being around before Clark made his debut as Superman. Batman would be an urban myth at that point, a vigilante who's existence is not even widely known of outside Gotham. I think Arthur Curry could already have been saving people's lives for year on the seas and built up a reputation as the mythical 'Aquaman' before the world heard of Superman. Hell, Hal Jordan could even have become GL and started his training on Oa before Superman showed up.
    I do not mind at all the other JL members being somewhat active before Superman's public arrival in Metropolis. Bruce is obviously much different than the others, while he is still fantastical he is considerably closer to reality than the rest, so urban legend Batman isn't a big deal. Hal having adventures off Earth also works, as does Arthur being an urban legend.

    Clark heralding the beginning of a new heroic age also works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Now that I think about it, there is one DC series which largely focuses on the world of superheroes as a divergent reality, especially in terms of how culture changed thanks to the presence of heroes... And that's James Robinson's Starman. And it works exactly because it takes place in a world where the JSA were the patriarchs of the heroic age in the 1930s and you have people like Batman and Superman in the modern era.

    Quite frankly, an excellent work as Starman is a good reason to make the JSA the first heroes on DC earth, rather than Superman.
    IDK, Starman much like the rest of the JSA heroes and tie-in heroes, doesn't really have a legacy that impacts anything outside of the sphere of Golden age era heroes. Like none of that actually shows up much in Batman or Superman's books, if at all. While I was reading it, a lot of it could take place on Earth-2 and not much would be changed.

  5. #125
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    This isn't new, Jack Kirby basically made the Guardian come first before Superman in his run on Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Yeah, and, later, it also says he stopped being Superboy when the Senate banned superheroes.
    What's the point of keeping original Superboy if he's not going to be the inspiration for the Legion?
    Last edited by BBally; 10-06-2019 at 02:02 PM.
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  6. #126
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    I can accept Diana predating him since within the logic of the DCU she's an old being but the stuff about Superboy quitting because of the Senate? That part sound a bit silly.
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  7. #127
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I'm generally against Wonder Woman pre-dating Superman, but it doesn't make me upset or anything as long as Clark/Kal's decision to put on the cape isn't inspired by her.
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  8. #128
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    I can accept Diana predating him since within the logic of the DCU she's an old being but the stuff about Superboy quitting because of the Senate? That part sound a bit silly.
    It's absolutely terrible and completely against what he should be and diminishes him, but then, DC hasn't minded doing that to any character in a long time.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The JSA not changing things even when they are on the same Earth is a pretty good indicator that they don't need to be there.
    But the same could be said for Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Sorry, but I don't really think that's a good example. Batgirl was introduced in the late Silver age and lasted throughout the Bronze age even after O'Neil's arrival. She was not purged by COIE. While they crippled the character, it happened within the confines of continuity. She still had her history even if she was put into a temporary limbo. Compare that to Kara, who was a pretty major supporting character for Clark, and who got erased from existence
    To me these are just details. Whether it happened in regular continuity, or in pre-crisis continuity, it's irrelevant. I really can't understand how the removal of Supergirl in a relaunch could be MORE traumatic than The Killing Joke. The point is - Batman was in a completely position in the 1980s in terms of atmosphere, setting, characters, than it was in the 1960s, and yes, it started in the 1970s - that's why I mentioned Dennis O'Neil earlier.
    But again, all of this is completely debatable. Crisis took away a lot of elements from Superman but also added a lot - especially regarding Krypton. Other elements, like Lex Luthor as a businessman, have become iconic and are still a fundamental part of the stories or TV series. I'd say that several people who started reading Superman with Byrne's Man of Steel don't have many nostalgic feeling towards Supergirl or SA Krypton, and they are pretty annoyed by the constant nostalgic return of forgotten elements.

    Still, to me this line of thought in general doesn't make much sense. I don't think that using the subtraction/addition of elements or the in-continuity/out-of-continuity differentiation is a good way to judge the situation of some characters. You can have excellent, incredibly important stories which are out-of-continuity and in which the writer removes many of the classic elements of a character except for the basic setting and cast of characters. To me, it is simply that Miller (just to name one, but I could mention many more) was a better writer than Byrne, his approach was more interesting, the stories were more compelling and the creative process they triggered was more intriguing. If Superman had had someone like Miller in those days, maybe he would be in a very different position today. Even with no Supergirl or with a completely different Supergirl.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  10. #130
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Don't care about Superman debuting first. My problemas is DC wanting to boast their history, saying it started in 1938 (read before Marvel), but apoarently thinking it is nota important that it started with Action Comics #1. Superman is a simplistic name in real life, but it will be kind of stupid in universe if are people being called superhero 20 years before the public knows he exists.
    But I will think is funny if Wonder Woman debuts in April 18th.
    Last edited by Ra-El; 10-06-2019 at 04:29 PM.

  11. #131
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I'm generally against Wonder Woman pre-dating Superman, but it doesn't make me upset or anything as long as Clark/Kal's decision to put on the cape isn't inspired by her.
    He shouldn't even know she exists.

  12. #132
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    What's the point of keeping original Superboy if he's not going to be the inspiration for the Legion?
    The logic is probably that just knowing the period existed in-general will be satisfaction enough for fans despite him being robbed of one of the most important aspects of that time period. These are the types of decisions that get made when those making them don't understand a mythos and what makes the particulars tick.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-06-2019 at 05:33 PM.
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  13. #133
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The logic is probably that just knowing the period existed in-general will be satisfaction enough for fans despite him being robbed of one of the most important aspects of that time period. These are the types of decisions that get made when those making them don't understand a mythos and what makes the particulars tick.
    In general I think DC has “struggled” in recent decades to consistently put out good quality Superman stories, the contrast with Batman has been marked. Maybe, it’s down to this? (Not understanding the myths.)

    We’ve seen Superman...I think...limited more and more by reference to the other main heroes. He mustn’t be super intelligent (“because Batman would then have no function in JLA”), Flash must be far faster, etc, etc

    At end I always wonder why anybody living in DCU itself would regard Superman as the preeminent hero...rather than thinking something like “Impressive all rounder, but when push comes to shove, somebody else can do all the important thing better”.

  14. #134
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    Ladies First!

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    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    In general I think DC has “struggled” in recent decades to consistently put out good quality Superman stories, the contrast with Batman has been marked. Maybe, it’s down to this? (Not understanding the myths.)

    We’ve seen Superman...I think...limited more and more by reference to the other main heroes. He mustn’t be super intelligent (“because Batman would then have no function in JLA”), Flash must be far faster, etc, etc

    At end I always wonder why anybody living in DCU itself would regard Superman as the preeminent hero...rather than thinking something like “Impressive all rounder, but when push comes to shove, somebody else can do all the important thing better”.
    Yes, at some point Superman was turned into the duck of the DCU, he isn't the best at anything. The only thing DC seems to want to keep is the fact that he is a naive farmboy, easy to trick and that he gets sick with Kryptonite. It telling that he is the only character to still have a weakness, three actually: red sun light, depowered him; magic he have no resistance to it, at the very least, at worst a magic trick males him sick and kryptonite, that can do all of it but better. Other DC character ler their weakness behind, Superman and Martian Manhunter still draging theirs, but I'm sure J'onn will ler his behind way before Superman. Honestly Kryptonite is a relic from the time Superman was truly invincible, but currently with every character and theirs mother capable kicking his ass, kryptonite main function is to allow Batman to defeat him, not that he needs, he van just wistle.

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