Would a magic based speedster be a good Superman villain?

[Vakanai]

After just having an irl discussion over Superman vs Dr. Strange, I decided that it'd largely depend on who gets the first move in, and Superman's superspeed would net him the win more often than not. So then my mind instantly went, "Hey, wouldn't a magic speedster be a great Superman villain?" I mean, without the speed advantage and a weakness to magic, that could pose a real interesting challenge for Superman.

What do you think? That a good idea for a villain?

[Phoenixx9]

Does Superman use his super speed when facing his villains? I thought he mostly used his flight, strength and durability.

[Vakanai]

Does Superman use his super speed when facing his villains? I thought he mostly used his flight, strength and durability.

He rarely does because writers think it'd end fights too easy - but there's no logical reason he shouldn't be fighting with superspeed.
Plus I'd like seeing him use his speed more often.

[Phoenixx9]

Ok.

Do you mean a speedster whose speed is empowered by magic? Or a speedster able to cast magic spells at superspeed?

[marhawkman]

*points at Teth Adam*

We have one already. Yes I know, same deal as Supes, most people don't write him using his super speed.

[Adekis]

*points at Teth Adam*

We have one already. Yes I know, same deal as Supes, most people don't write him using his super speed.

That's a good point, he's a great enemy for Superman.

Anyway, in general I'd say "no". The ability to physically hurt Superman isn't what makes someone a really good or memorable Superman villain.

[LordMikel]

*points at Teth Adam*

We have one already. Yes I know, same deal as Supes, most people don't write him using his super speed.

I'm going to have to disagree, or at least argue, I think we want a speedster who uses Magic and not a speedster who is fast by magic. In my opinion, fast by magic simply makes you fast, which doesn't exploit Superman's weakness to magic.

[DochaDocha]

I'd argue Superman should have fewer magic-based enemies, not more. I'd be more interested in magic-based villains if the stories didn't default to villain has magic therefore Superman can't win a direct fight, which leads to more JL stories with magic guys who take out Superman right away.

I would like more speed- or time-based villains, however. If they happen to get their powers magically, so be it.

[Vakanai]

Ok.

Do you mean a speedster whose speed is empowered by magic? Or a speedster able to cast magic spells at superspeed?

Kinda both. Magic makes him fast, plus he can do other things as well probably. Like magic blasts at superspeed or something.

That's a good point, he's a great enemy for Superman.

Anyway, in general I'd say "no". The ability to physically hurt Superman isn't what makes someone a really good or memorable Superman villain.

True - what makes a great Superman villain is, well, good stories, style, visual flair, etc. But being a challenge in a fight doesn't hurt.

I'd argue Superman should have fewer magic-based enemies, not more. I'd be more interested in magic-based villains if the stories didn't default to villain has magic therefore Superman can't win a direct fight, which leads to more JL stories with magic guys who take out Superman right away.

I would like more speed- or time-based villains, however. If they happen to get their powers magically, so be it.

I agree about not liking Superman getting taken out by magic villains so easily in JL stories - but this would be a Superman only rogue, so Supes wouldn't have Batman or Wonder Woman, so he'd have to push through and win on his own somehow. I think that kind of removes that main problem/issue.

[marhawkman]

I agree about not liking Superman getting taken out by magic villains so easily in JL stories - but this would be a Superman only rogue, so Supes wouldn't have Batman or Wonder Woman, so he'd have to push through and win on his own somehow. I think that kind of removes that main problem/issue.

One interesting thing I've seen done, was Superman in the role of a super-mook helping Dr. Fate. Batman hates the idea of working for someone else, but Supes isn't that egomaniacal. If it's what needs done, Supes will do it. In the case of magic villains that means he'll have a magic ally take over and basically be their sidekick until the threat is over.

In terms of soloing magic threats... really varies by story. One story had the bad guy go "You're powerful, for a mortal, but you don't have the tools to defeat me." and he was actually RIGHT. It'd be hard to write a story where Supes actually solos that sort of magic bad guy. 'cause this is the one where he had Dr. Fate take the lead... after getting his ass handed to him multiple times.

What power level of villain would it need to be to be a recurring Superman enemy?

[DochaDocha]

I agree about not liking Superman getting taken out by magic villains so easily in JL stories - but this would be a Superman only rogue, so Supes wouldn't have Batman or Wonder Woman, so he'd have to push through and win on his own somehow. I think that kind of removes that main problem/issue.

I'm of the opinion that bad Superman ideas are like weeds. First you see one, and think you're done with it forever. Before you know it, the weeds are everywhere.

Yeah, I'm cynical like that...

[Adekis]

Kinda both. Magic makes him fast, plus he can do other things as well probably. Like magic blasts at superspeed or something.



True - what makes a great Superman villain is, well, good stories, style, visual flair, etc. But being a challenge in a fight doesn't hurt.



I agree about not liking Superman getting taken out by magic villains so easily in JL stories - but this would be a Superman only rogue, so Supes wouldn't have Batman or Wonder Woman, so he'd have to push through and win on his own somehow. I think that kind of removes that main problem/issue.

I largely agree with DochaDocha; I don't think the problem is that the character will bleed into the JL stories, but rather that the basic concept that Superman can get readily curbstomped by any middle schooler with an ancient eldritch tome will continue to proliferate, the more often the "magic weakness" gets used as a quick-and-dirty way to physically threaten him. Superman shouldn't be that vulnerable to magic, he should just be less invulnerable to it than he is to most things.

Additionally, I still think that being able to physically hurt Superman isn't what makes a villain good or memorable to begin with. Being able to hurt other people is really sufficient!

[marhawkman]

I largely agree with DochaDocha; I don't think the problem is that the character will bleed into the JL stories, but rather that the basic concept that Superman can get readily curbstomped by any middle schooler with an ancient eldritch tome will continue to proliferate, the more often the "magic weakness" gets used as a quick-and-dirty way to physically threaten him. Superman shouldn't be that vulnerable to magic, he should just be less invulnerable to it than he is to most things.

Additionally, I still think that being able to physically hurt Superman isn't what makes a villain good or memorable to begin with. Being able to hurt other people is really sufficient!

This is something I think is forgotten in far too many stories. Hero vs villain fights do not need to be a fight to the death between the hero and villain. The villain has a goal, and the hero is there to stop them. It is the threat of the hero failing to stop the villain that is a better driving force in many stories. For example, a villain that teleports using magic, how can Superman stop them fast enough?

[Vakanai]

Sorry for resurrecting this, but basically the main reason against this idea is that some of us are sick of Superman being taken out too easily by magic, and a dislike for villains who can actually hurt Superman, despite how they may or may not be written? There's just no way to make this idea work in an appealing way for you?

[Ra-El]

If the writers remember that Superman don't get sick just because someone casted a spell close by... and that magic don't have double effect on him. The only thing the writers would have to do is have Superman fight smart, something he rarely does.

A wizard may be able to hurt Superman, but Superman is capable of moving faster than their brains can function, so it should be a "fair" fight. But the most likely scenario?
Superman will get beaten pretty easily, than in the end he will have this great plan to take care of his magical enemy, and the plan will be... ask for help.

If this magical villain was to be defeat by Clark, even with Clark getting wrecked while doing it, I would be fine, but for the last 5 years or so, Superman have someone guest starring on his books every 3 issues. I remember when Rebirth started, in the first arc of Action Comics we had Wonder Woman, and for all of Tomasi and Gleason run (that I love), Batman imagery was always present, be it by the Hellbat armor, Damian or Batman himself. Lois weapon of choice was the Hellbat gauntlet! If we stop to think about it, half of Tomasi and Gleason's run was a call back to their time on the Batman tittles, including an Apokolipse arc.
Bendis is probably using his Superman run to write as many DC characters as possible, but in his case it's his style, on Marvel he always used cameos.

So the most likely, Superman will only defeat the evil wizard with help from some magical character and if we are luck the new villain will be forgotten, if we aren't luck and the villain is cool enough to get atention, he will become a new JL villain, and everytime he attacks, Superman will be one shoted.