Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,200

    Default Would a magic based speedster be a good Superman villain?

    After just having an irl discussion over Superman vs Dr. Strange, I decided that it'd largely depend on who gets the first move in, and Superman's superspeed would net him the win more often than not. So then my mind instantly went, "Hey, wouldn't a magic speedster be a great Superman villain?" I mean, without the speed advantage and a weakness to magic, that could pose a real interesting challenge for Superman.

    What do you think? That a good idea for a villain?

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    4,784

    Default

    Does Superman use his super speed when facing his villains? I thought he mostly used his flight, strength and durability.

  3. #3
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,200

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Does Superman use his super speed when facing his villains? I thought he mostly used his flight, strength and durability.
    He rarely does because writers think it'd end fights too easy - but there's no logical reason he shouldn't be fighting with superspeed.
    Plus I'd like seeing him use his speed more often.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    4,784

    Default

    Ok.

    Do you mean a speedster whose speed is empowered by magic? Or a speedster able to cast magic spells at superspeed?

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    2,347

    Default

    *points at Teth Adam*

    We have one already. Yes I know, same deal as Supes, most people don't write him using his super speed.

  6. #6
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    *points at Teth Adam*

    We have one already. Yes I know, same deal as Supes, most people don't write him using his super speed.
    That's a good point, he's a great enemy for Superman.

    Anyway, in general I'd say "no". The ability to physically hurt Superman isn't what makes someone a really good or memorable Superman villain.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  7. #7
    Mighty Member LordMikel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,234

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    *points at Teth Adam*

    We have one already. Yes I know, same deal as Supes, most people don't write him using his super speed.
    I'm going to have to disagree, or at least argue, I think we want a speedster who uses Magic and not a speedster who is fast by magic. In my opinion, fast by magic simply makes you fast, which doesn't exploit Superman's weakness to magic.
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
    Restorative Nostalgia pushes back against the here and now, keeping us stuck trying to relive our glory days.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,807

    Default

    I'd argue Superman should have fewer magic-based enemies, not more. I'd be more interested in magic-based villains if the stories didn't default to villain has magic therefore Superman can't win a direct fight, which leads to more JL stories with magic guys who take out Superman right away.

    I would like more speed- or time-based villains, however. If they happen to get their powers magically, so be it.

  9. #9
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,200

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    Ok.

    Do you mean a speedster whose speed is empowered by magic? Or a speedster able to cast magic spells at superspeed?
    Kinda both. Magic makes him fast, plus he can do other things as well probably. Like magic blasts at superspeed or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    That's a good point, he's a great enemy for Superman.

    Anyway, in general I'd say "no". The ability to physically hurt Superman isn't what makes someone a really good or memorable Superman villain.
    True - what makes a great Superman villain is, well, good stories, style, visual flair, etc. But being a challenge in a fight doesn't hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I'd argue Superman should have fewer magic-based enemies, not more. I'd be more interested in magic-based villains if the stories didn't default to villain has magic therefore Superman can't win a direct fight, which leads to more JL stories with magic guys who take out Superman right away.

    I would like more speed- or time-based villains, however. If they happen to get their powers magically, so be it.
    I agree about not liking Superman getting taken out by magic villains so easily in JL stories - but this would be a Superman only rogue, so Supes wouldn't have Batman or Wonder Woman, so he'd have to push through and win on his own somehow. I think that kind of removes that main problem/issue.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    2,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I agree about not liking Superman getting taken out by magic villains so easily in JL stories - but this would be a Superman only rogue, so Supes wouldn't have Batman or Wonder Woman, so he'd have to push through and win on his own somehow. I think that kind of removes that main problem/issue.
    One interesting thing I've seen done, was Superman in the role of a super-mook helping Dr. Fate. Batman hates the idea of working for someone else, but Supes isn't that egomaniacal. If it's what needs done, Supes will do it. In the case of magic villains that means he'll have a magic ally take over and basically be their sidekick until the threat is over.

    In terms of soloing magic threats... really varies by story. One story had the bad guy go "You're powerful, for a mortal, but you don't have the tools to defeat me." and he was actually RIGHT. It'd be hard to write a story where Supes actually solos that sort of magic bad guy. 'cause this is the one where he had Dr. Fate take the lead... after getting his ass handed to him multiple times.

    What power level of villain would it need to be to be a recurring Superman enemy?

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,807

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I agree about not liking Superman getting taken out by magic villains so easily in JL stories - but this would be a Superman only rogue, so Supes wouldn't have Batman or Wonder Woman, so he'd have to push through and win on his own somehow. I think that kind of removes that main problem/issue.
    I'm of the opinion that bad Superman ideas are like weeds. First you see one, and think you're done with it forever. Before you know it, the weeds are everywhere.

    Yeah, I'm cynical like that...

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Kinda both. Magic makes him fast, plus he can do other things as well probably. Like magic blasts at superspeed or something.



    True - what makes a great Superman villain is, well, good stories, style, visual flair, etc. But being a challenge in a fight doesn't hurt.



    I agree about not liking Superman getting taken out by magic villains so easily in JL stories - but this would be a Superman only rogue, so Supes wouldn't have Batman or Wonder Woman, so he'd have to push through and win on his own somehow. I think that kind of removes that main problem/issue.
    I largely agree with DochaDocha; I don't think the problem is that the character will bleed into the JL stories, but rather that the basic concept that Superman can get readily curbstomped by any middle schooler with an ancient eldritch tome will continue to proliferate, the more often the "magic weakness" gets used as a quick-and-dirty way to physically threaten him. Superman shouldn't be that vulnerable to magic, he should just be less invulnerable to it than he is to most things.

    Additionally, I still think that being able to physically hurt Superman isn't what makes a villain good or memorable to begin with. Being able to hurt other people is really sufficient!
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    2,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I largely agree with DochaDocha; I don't think the problem is that the character will bleed into the JL stories, but rather that the basic concept that Superman can get readily curbstomped by any middle schooler with an ancient eldritch tome will continue to proliferate, the more often the "magic weakness" gets used as a quick-and-dirty way to physically threaten him. Superman shouldn't be that vulnerable to magic, he should just be less invulnerable to it than he is to most things.

    Additionally, I still think that being able to physically hurt Superman isn't what makes a villain good or memorable to begin with. Being able to hurt other people is really sufficient!
    This is something I think is forgotten in far too many stories. Hero vs villain fights do not need to be a fight to the death between the hero and villain. The villain has a goal, and the hero is there to stop them. It is the threat of the hero failing to stop the villain that is a better driving force in many stories. For example, a villain that teleports using magic, how can Superman stop them fast enough?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •