Would a magic based speedster be a good Superman villain?

[lotchj]

I have no interest in seeing superman face a speedster that get his or her speed from magic! Never liked the whole weakness to magic!! Never got or understood why they always like to see the hero suffer or fail! Seem to me more fans are pro-villain and ant-hero!! The stories aren't really about the hero being challenged!! Their about destroying the hero, their lives, turning their love ones against them, hurting or killing their love ones!! It not about challenging the hero, it about making the hero suffer as much as possible!! How about stories about a powerful hero being able to go toe to toe with any villain!! Not being the Villain punching bag!!

[JAK]

Here's a thought: go with the weeds idea to make a point and a change.

Have a villain who uses magic to be fast (among other things; maybe it's temporary or requires a wand/bracelets/something) and after he/she gets the jump on Superman, they find a way to make more of them and start a magic-based crime group. This makes Superman dive deeper into his vulnerability and, in the process, builds up his magic resistance.

Make this a MAJOR point, enough that future writers of group books know they can't rely on that crutch anymore, with a few small exceptions.

Might be worth a shot, anyway.

[Jon Clark]

A superfast character with a magical basis could be a great addition or another flop. The problem isn't with the basic concept of the powers it's with the execution and the larger DCU in general.

Does this speedy sorcerer bring something to a story that Reverse-Flash or the Wizard wouldn't? To make a lasting impression the character needs to be more than a two-trick pony.

Is there a way to keep the character from getting pulled into Flash stories as another speedster to get outclassed? Or used as a punching bag for other heroes? Think how impressive the Joker would feel if he was appearing in Justice League books as a generic mook taken out in one panel by Wonder Woman, Cyborg, or the Wonder Twins.

[magha_regulus]

I actually really like this idea. Maybe its a mad scientist who wants to scientifically study magic and discovers that they are actually really good with it. I'd sort of like them to be a bit of a time traveller.

What if Superman has to rely on his super scientific mind to beat this foe by developing special tech to deal with them? It could be a real battle between science and magic with the moral of the story being something along the lines of it being best to not take the easy way out.

[Vakanai]

So basically the main problems isn't the idea, but the general distrust of getting a writer who won't just use it as an excuse to go "haha Superman pwned by magic!" Which frankly doesn't matter who the villain is or what their powers are is a bad story none of us want. But if it's merely a challenge and hard fight for Superman, that's well told and he finds a way to win without help, then it should be okay? Because frankly that's what I was thinking of and hoping for when I made this thread. I think a physical challenge that can hurt Superman, plays on a theme that isn't used much in his rogues gallery (magic and speedsters), that he still beats and triumphs over (perhaps with a little more thinking than writers usually have him do), could be a really great and different fight than we usually get. I understand the fear of more anti-Superman writing from DC, but I prefer to imagine the best case scenario when dealing with hypotheticals.

It'd also be interesting to see how such a villain would come to be and work in the Superman mythos. Alien? Human? Wacky origin? What's the costume? Personality?

Personally I'd prefer a rogue who is in it for the thrill and the dough. No murder spree killer crap, just a guy using magic speed and spells to rob banks and people blind and Superman has to put an end to his crime spree and return the stolen loot. Something with the light-heartedness of him dealing with Mxy or some wacky Golden/Silver Age villains, but still makes for a tough fight.

[PCN24454]

I feel like they might as well be teleporter by that point. Super speed generally doesn't feel like a magical power.

[Vakanai]

I feel like they might as well be teleporter by that point. Super speed generally doesn't feel like a magical power.

I don't get why not? Shazam's speed is magical, and teleportation is more commonly a science fiction thing than a magic thing than thanks to Star Trek. Teleportation doesn't seem more inherently magic-based than super speed. It's probably because when you think speed in DC you think Flash, who is science based. But I don't think that is a reason to prohibit magic speed.

Plus I've always personally hated teleportation as a power, but that's just me.

[marhawkman]

I don't get why not? Shazam's speed is magical, and teleportation is more commonly a science fiction thing than a magic thing than thanks to Star Trek. Teleportation doesn't seem more inherently magic-based than super speed. It's probably because when you think speed in DC you think Flash, who is science based. But I don't think that is a reason to prohibit magic speed.

Plus I've always personally hated teleportation as a power, but that's just me.

Well teleportation as an ability is often used as a method for magic characters to escape combat. But yeah magic characters in general are typically wizards who avoid melee combat.

[Vakanai]

Well teleportation as an ability is often used as a method for magic characters to escape combat. But yeah magic characters in general are typically wizards who avoid melee combat.

Yeah, typically, but there's enough magic swordsmen and the like in all of fiction that magic fighting types exist. If all magic users are your stereotypical Gandalf or D&D wizard types it gets dull. I like when a swordsman in an anime uses illusion magic and stuff like that to fight. Swords catch fire or crackle with lightning. So things like superspeed by magic isn't unheard of. Just can't stick to RPG classes too much.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't know about a magic speedster. But, i always wanted to upgrade the archer with magic arrows. Especially, elemental once that can hurt superman. Him being able to create magic talesmens to sheild himself as well.

[marhawkman]

Yeah, typically, but there's enough magic swordsmen and the like in all of fiction that magic fighting types exist. If all magic users are your stereotypical Gandalf or D&D wizard types it gets dull. I like when a swordsman in an anime uses illusion magic and stuff like that to fight. Swords catch fire or crackle with lightning. So things like superspeed by magic isn't unheard of. Just can't stick to RPG classes too much.

Or a magic assassin who uses invisibility spells and teleportation to sneak up on you.

[Vakanai]

I don't know about a magic speedster. But, i always wanted to upgrade the archer with magic arrows. Especially, elemental once that can hurt superman. Him being able to create magic talesmens to sheild himself as well.

Well, part of the reason I'm fascinated by the idea of a speedster is writers always have him "forget" he can fight at superspeed so more of his villains can be a threat. In the Rumbles subforum it's called Character Induced Stupidity. Which bugs me sometimes. Having a villain that forces Superman to use his speed to do more than travel is just something I want to get over that block writers have on using that speed in battle. Combine that with magic, something that he can't shrug off and has to think his way around, and there's something that can post a unique challenge to Superman. You know, under the right writer who'll still respect Superman's ability to overcome all obstacles in a clever way. I know, it's a unique set of things that I want to see tried at least once that may only appeal to me, but I do think it has potential to be a fun one and done story at least. I think we don't see enough of Superman getting challenged and finding unique ways to overcome it anymore. Either they have him lose (boo!) or he just needs to punch harder.

So yeah, someone who both makes Superman use his speed in battle (which he rarely does outside big events sometimes), who poses a unique challenge (getting past the magic), while not being a city or world ending threat (I like the mid level guys).

An archer with magic arrows could be unique still though, but I'd still want something there in place so the writers won't be tempted to conveniently forget Superman can move faster than the archer can think, nevermind draw an arrow.

[Vakanai]

Or a magic assassin who uses invisibility spells and teleportation to sneak up on you.

Yes... although that may be where my dislike of teleportation comes from... just sounds so familiar...

[marhawkman]

Well, part of the reason I'm fascinated by the idea of a speedster is writers always have him "forget" he can fight at superspeed so more of his villains can be a threat. In the Rumbles subforum it's called Character Induced Stupidity. Which bugs me sometimes. Having a villain that forces Superman to use his speed to do more than travel is just something I want to get over that block writers have on using that speed in battle. Combine that with magic, something that he can't shrug off and has to think his way around, and there's something that can post a unique challenge to Superman. You know, under the right writer who'll still respect Superman's ability to overcome all obstacles in a clever way. I know, it's a unique set of things that I want to see tried at least once that may only appeal to me, but I do think it has potential to be a fun one and done story at least. I think we don't see enough of Superman getting challenged and finding unique ways to overcome it anymore. Either they have him lose (boo!) or he just needs to punch harder.

So yeah, someone who both makes Superman use his speed in battle (which he rarely does outside big events sometimes), who poses a unique challenge (getting past the magic), while not being a city or world ending threat (I like the mid level guys).

An archer with magic arrows could be unique still though, but I'd still want something there in place so the writers won't be tempted to conveniently forget Superman can move faster than the archer can think, nevermind draw an arrow.

Invisible arrows that a mere mortal can't even see?

[Vakanai]

Invisible arrows that a mere mortal can't even see?

He'd still know the direction the arrows came from, so could see where the archer is with supervision and get him before he can fire again. If anyone needs teleportation, it'd be arrow boy.

Although that could make for a great team of villains for Superman to face. A magic archer with elemental arrows teleporting place to place providing cover while the magic speedster dodges Superman and either comes in close for quick hand to hand with Supes or runs off with their stolen gains. How often do teleporters and speedsters work together? Rarely ever.