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  1. #1
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    Default Did Magneto set-up Sabretooth?

    Sabretooth is a monster. No question about it. But I think Magneto set Sabretooth up.

    Magneto is a really really smart guy. Yeah, he gave Creed orders, but Magneto also probably knew ahead of time that Creed was incapable of not killing. Did Magneto include Creed on a mission so that he could eliminate a loose cannon, someone who was sure to stir up unnecessary trouble with the humans? Or, did Magneto use Creed so that he could later make an example of him? Or both?

    Or, am I reading too much into this?

  2. #2
    Incredible Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvelman View Post
    Sabretooth is a monster. No question about it. But I think Magneto set Sabretooth up.

    Magneto is a really really smart guy. Yeah, he gave Creed orders, but Magneto also probably knew ahead of time that Creed was incapable of not killing. Did Magneto include Creed on a mission so that he could eliminate a loose cannon, someone who was sure to stir up unnecessary trouble with the humans? Or, did Magneto use Creed so that he could later make an example of him? Or both?

    Or, am I reading too much into this?
    It´s a possibility, Magneto has no love lost for Creed unless he´s inverted because of his part in the mutant massacre of the morlocks. But to be fair, Creed is a grow up man trained by Shield and Weapon X, who has lived longer than Magneto has been alive. He should have been able to handle one mission when he didn´t need to use lethal force because he was told not to. On the other hand Xavier needed to make an example of someone for people like Sinister to see, so really, it could be both ways imo, Magneto could have set him up but it was on him to fall for it or not.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  3. #3
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    I'm guessing it was a ploy by Mags and Prof to set him up to fail. Why did Sabes get sent to the whole but Logan got a pass when he killed all those Orchis agents? I'm not saying I want Wolverine thrown in the pit, I want him to be able to continue to be the best there is, but I do wonder why...
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  4. #4

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    I don't know if he was set-up per se, but Mags definitely gave him enough rope to hang himself with and Creed went for it. Though, really, I wonder if the whole show trial was simply a convenient pretext for the disposal of a long-time problem rather than a response to the most recent killing. Creed’s been given multiple chances at redemption/rehabilitation before, only to gleefully revert to form as soon as he finds the softest spot to jam the knife (and the one time he didn't, it was because agency had been magically stripped from him). Stern Dad sent him on a mission with an explicit no-kill order, and Creed pretty much flipped him the bird, probably thinking he could act with relative impunity so long as Nice Dad was running the show. And this time, Xavier just decided they weren’t going to play that game.

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  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    I'm guessing it was a ploy by Mags and Prof to set him up to fail. Why did Sabes get sent to the whole but Logan got a pass when he killed all those Orchis agents? I'm not saying I want Wolverine thrown in the pit, I want him to be able to continue to be the best there is, but I do wonder why...
    Magento said it self defense and what Creed was different. I was in the military if we opened up fire at first enemies while on mission it wouldn't be an issue. If you open fire first on the same enemies inside of a village you would be put in jail. You have rule of engagement. Sabertooth was on a non kill mission and he killed. Wolverine and Penance where on non kill mission the enemy showed that they were using lethal force and become a kill optional mission.

    Xavier and Magneto tested Sabertooth not really set up him, Sabertooth had the free will not kill on the mission. Sabertooth had the free will after the mission to show remorse for his crime. Which probably would have gotten him a different punishment. Sacrificial lamb of sorts yeah he was but it was going to happen at some point. I am sure Magneto and Xavier didn't mind that it happened right way as message to everyone else.

  6. #6
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Magento said it self defense and what Creed was different. I was in the military if we opened up fire at first enemies while on mission it wouldn't be an issue. If you open fire first on the same enemies inside of a village you would be put in jail. You have rule of engagement. Sabertooth was on a non kill mission and he killed. Wolverine and Penance where on non kill mission the enemy showed that they were using lethal force and become a kill optional mission.

    Xavier and Magneto tested Sabertooth not really set up him, Sabertooth had the free will not kill on the mission. Sabertooth had the free will after the mission to show remorse for his crime. Which probably would have gotten him a different punishment. Sacrificial lamb of sorts yeah he was but it was going to happen at some point. I am sure Magneto and Xavier didn't mind that it happened right way as message to everyone else.

    See that is what I thought at first as well, but I went back and looked at HoX 1 and the guards definitely have guns, and there appear to be spent casings lying about. That's what leads me to believe Sabes was set up.
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  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    See that is what I thought at first as well, but I went back and looked at HoX 1 and the guards definitely have guns, and there appear to be spent casings lying about. That's what leads me to believe Sabes was set up.

    We probably shouldn't over think this because they are so many factors we don't know. Did Sabertooth purposely engage the guards? Could guards actually harm Sabertooth? Did Wolverine actually kill the guards or did he maim them?Could the guards actually kill Wolverine?(they killed Monet so they actually had the capability ). I mean Wolverine and company died on the mission it is kinda hard to be mad for killing on mission where you died and almost failed. They are bunch of things that could make this more clear but Sabertooth disobeying order to kill is the most important thing. Whereas only the killing scientists on board the station was the issue with killing on that mission not the Orchis Soldiers.

    I think this going to be need to said that not taking "innocent human life" is Krakoa actual law. They don't have problems with killing humans. I mean seriously Mystique, Mr Sinister, Apocalypse, Emma, Shaw, Magneto..Plus the Captain's Magik, Bishop and Gorgon. These aren't pacifist heroes. BUT if they can't die that drastically lowers to need to kill people it is going to be interesting moving forward. Sabertooth actually crime I believe is killing people in situation where he didn't have to kill them and they didn't pose a threat to someone else in the future.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    I think Magneto did in fact set him up. Because that's the only in-story reason it makes any sense. Otherwise, it'd be some sloppy writing.
    The trial begins with Creed's act of killing two Damage Control Guards in House of X #1. Magneto says he gave Creed strict orders not to kill and he disobeyed and should be punished.
    • #1 Why did Magneto send a compulsive killer on a no-kill mission and be surprised he killed someone? Not saying Sabretooth had no agency but we can't ignore Magneto's agency in employing wrong people for ill-suited jobs. Send Wolverine on the no-kill mission and Creed on the Orchis invasion. Monet & Jean could've used him there.
    • #2 Why did Magneto need Creed on that mission when Mystique & Toad actually did everything? I noted in HOX 1 reviews that Creed seemed like a useless addition who was only around as a fall-man -and that is highlighted here. Magneto & Hickman just had Creed set up to fail so he could be used as a scapegoat.

    Then this comes into play with a bias I often see. Creed is not the only bad guy in Marvel, and for the longest, he's been a butt-monkey villain who's around to get jobbed to pet-characters. During his earlier X-Men days, Creed was controlled & capable of truces, cooperation, and intelligence, but he's been written as a dumb savage since Chuck Austen and Hickman followed suit on all the worst parts of his characterization over the years to make throwing him out convenient.

    Hickman's execution painted the character as an annoyance he wanted an excuse to toss out -and he wasn't subtle about it.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 10-06-2019 at 01:45 PM.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    It's a good question, especially since we have characters like Essex, En Sabah Nur, Raven Darkholme, Sebastian Shaw, Exodus *on the Krakoan Council sitting in judgement of Victor Creed*, not to mention all the other assorted villains (Lady Mastermind and more..) brought there. PLUS (i'm aware the characters in-universe don't know this part) all the stuff Moira has been doing throughout her past lives. It's just absurd that Sabretooth gutting a few guards is like treated as some monstrous abomination which requires a severe punishment.

    The only saving grace is at least they acknowledge explicitly Sabes isn't "dead" and can indeed be released at a future point for whatever reason (if they feel he's "redeemed" although idk how they'd even check that when he's deep within the bowels of Krakoa, or if they change their mind and decide his crimes weren't as severe or they feel a need for his abilities etc)

    It's so weird that I feel like it's almost a public relations move since the Fantastic Four captured Sabes initially, and so the mutants need to save face and pretend to care about their own criminals?

    Or it was an action meant to demarcate a moral threshold which got encoded into their new law, so that from that time forward, everyone knows what's up and not to kill humans. Again, the insanity and hypocrisy with characters like (an obviously giggling and nuts) Sinister there makes it ridiculous but I suppose the concept is fine.
    Last edited by AbnormallyNormal; 10-06-2019 at 06:34 AM.
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  10. #10
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    It's a good question, especially since we have characters like Essex, En Sabah Nur, Raven Darkholme, Sebastian Shaw, Exodus *on the Krakoan Council sitting in judgement of Victor Creed*, not to mention all the other assorted villains (Lady Mastermind and more..) brought there. PLUS (i'm aware the characters in-universe don't know this part) all the stuff Moira has been doing throughout her past lives. It's just absurd that Sabretooth gutting a few guards is like treated as some monstrous abomination which requires a severe punishment.

    The only saving grace is at least they acknowledge explicitly Sabes isn't "dead" and can indeed be released at a future point for whatever reason (if they feel he's "redeemed" although idk how they'd even check that when he's deep within the bowels of Krakoa, or if they change their mind and decide his crimes weren't as severe or they feel a need for his abilities etc)

    It's so weird that I feel like it's almost a public relations move since the Fantastic Four captured Sabes initially, and so the mutants need to save face and pretend to care about their own criminals?

    Or it was an action meant to demarcate a moral threshold which got encoded into their new law, so that from that time forward, everyone knows what's up and not to kill humans. Again, the insanity and hypocrisy with characters like (an obviously giggling and nuts) Sinister there makes it ridiculous but I suppose the concept is fine.
    Well put. I hadn't thought about it like this before; you made me realize of something. Yes, it was a set-up (with Magneto and Xavier playing bad cop/good cop or bad dad/good dad) but I think you're right, the trial and punishment serve so many purposes. Yes, an example for the other "villains" to take to heart. Yes, proof the council are the boss and mean business. But also, a lesson specifically aimed at Creed. I think the whole thing was meant as a specific form of conditioning for Sabertooth. Magneto knows they'll need his skills in the future, knows he can't be killed and won't be damaged by time spent in a Krakoan hell--it looks more like a specific message for Sabertooth, who will be free soon enough, as soon as Xavier or Magneto need him for another special-ops mission. Like, *Okay, Creed, we'll make a deal, do this mission for us, do it well and follow the rules, and you get amnesty.* It's cold and super utilitarian and doesn't value Sabertooth's humanity very highly but on the other hand, how else are they supposed to handle Victor Creed? Definitely a means justifies the end kind of situation to get a handle on the Sabertooth-problem. And I think it's more Xavier than Magneto; Magneto would lift him in the air and yell in his face, "Shape up Creed, or I'll torture you for all eternity in the pits of Krakoan-hell." Xavier is more into, "Let's try behavioral conditioning."

    Edited to add: So yeah, as everyone agrees, sending Sabertooth on the mission was a set-up and I guess Xavier and Magneto felt fairly certain he'd end up disobeying the orders and killing someone.
    Last edited by Rivka; 10-06-2019 at 12:27 PM.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    I don't know if he was set-up per se, but Mags definitely gave him enough rope to hang himself with and Creed went for it. Though, really, I wonder if the whole show trial was simply a convenient pretext for the disposal of a long-time problem rather than a response to the most recent killing. Creed’s been given multiple chances at redemption/rehabilitation before, only to gleefully revert to form as soon as he finds the softest spot to jam the knife (and the one time he didn't, it was because agency had been magically stripped from him). Stern Dad sent him on a mission with an explicit no-kill order, and Creed pretty much flipped him the bird, probably thinking he could act with relative impunity so long as Nice Dad was running the show. And this time, Xavier just decided they weren’t going to play that game.
    Yeah, that's what I think too. This was a case of Erik anticipating that Sabretooth would do something stupid on the mission and compromise it like he always does because he is a loose canon that can't be trusted. So the no kill order, keep it quiet and clandestine and don't kill anyone. I am sure Erik felt there was at least a 50/50 chance Sabretooth would be his normal psychopath self and needlessly kill people for the sheer enjoyment of it.
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  12. #12
    Spectacular Member ComeOnBunny's Avatar
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    No, Sabretooth setup Sabretooth. Even if Magneto did not trust Sabretooth not to kill people, Sabretooth has free will and could have surprised him but instead he chose to kill people lol.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComeOnBunny View Post
    No, Sabretooth setup Sabretooth. Even if Magneto did not trust Sabretooth not to kill people, Sabretooth has free will and could have surprised him but instead he chose to kill people lol.
    This is the correct answer, Creed has agency, is actually very intelligent and showed no remorse.

    He was given the same chance everyone else was given and threw it all away.
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 10-06-2019 at 01:01 PM.

  14. #14
    Spectacular Member Leirus's Avatar
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    Pooooor Creed. What kind of set up it is when you have to kill someone to fall into it?. If it was Creed has no one to blame but himself.

  15. #15

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    Magneto trusted that Creed would do what was in his nature to do.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

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