Norman Osborn as a General MU villain. What do you think?

[Frontier]

Osborn did poke fun at Hank Pym being a wife beater.

https://img.fireden.net/co/image/146...9678762698.jpg

Ellis did a good job making Green Goblin look scary and impressive in his Thunderbolts run.

You hit the nail on the head about Norman and Goblin's dichotomy not entirely translating on the big Marvel-wide stage.

Hank had the perfect response .

[Tony Stark]

Hank had the perfect response .

He really did lol.

[Huntsman Spider]

Then again he just needs to invent a "flux Capaciter" or the like and his new start up would be a huge corporation in 3 issues. Or get at least some of his old holdings Either would work and could make him a large enough threat.

Technically, Alchemax is the product of his old holdings, specifically Oscorp being merged with Allan Chemical and its acquisitions from Horizon Labs.

Him having as much legal/corporate power as someone like Tony isn't as far-fetched, but the Norman from Spider-Man comics doesn't strike me as someone who would want to wear an Iron Man armor (at least not on a permanent basis). I think this is why some fans find Norman as an MU villain to be boring. Without the Green Goblin there and playing a significant role, Norman is a generic corporate villain at worst and Frank Underwood in an Iron Man suit at best.

Frank Underwood in an Iron Man suit. Now that's a scary image.

He was great as a Marvel-wide villain but the price of taking away one of the best cards in a Spider-Man writer's deck may not be worth it when the list of possible big villains for Avengers/MU stuff is endless. If it happened again, it would require real coordination between offices, with the goal of telling new stories using Norman in other books without forgetting that he's a Spider-Man character and ideally his biggest developments would occur in that space.

Good points there, and I would add that it should come with a similar elevation of Spider-Man's role in the Marvel Universe.

[Odd Rödney]

Agreed. I thought Dark Reign was stupendous. A lot of untapped potential there. I think Osborn made a great foil for the MU. I always wanted Tony and him to go after each other again after Worlds Most Wanted.

Yeah, Iron Man and Osborn work well off of each other, lots more potential stories await!

He was great as a Marvel-wide villain but the price of taking away one of the best cards in a Spider-Man writer's deck may not be worth it when the list of possible big villains for Avengers/MU stuff is endless. If it happened again, it would require real coordination between offices, with the goal of telling new stories using Norman in other books without forgetting that he's a Spider-Man character and ideally his biggest developments would occur in that space.

I think it could be done. In addition, I think he could have big developments in both realms. He could take actions as a general Marvel villain that could result in consequences that also play out in the Spidey books. Surely the events that happened in other books during Dark Reign were felt in the Spidey books too, no? I honestly don't know as I wasn't reading Spidey at the time. Just X-Men and Avengers stuff.

Good points there, and I would add that it should come with a similar elevation of Spider-Man's role in the Marvel Universe.

Yes, this! Spidey is already a big character in the wider Marvel universe. Both he AND Norman could benefit from this!

[Huntsman Spider]

Yeah, Iron Man and Osborn work well off of each other, lots more potential stories await!



I think it could be done. In addition, I think he could have big developments in both realms. He could take actions as a general Marvel villain that could result in consequences that also play out in the Spidey books. Surely the events that happened in other books during Dark Reign were felt in the Spidey books too, no? I honestly don't know as I wasn't reading Spidey at the time. Just X-Men and Avengers stuff.



Yes, this! Spidey is already a big character in the wider Marvel universe. Both he AND Norman could benefit from this!

Dark Reign's impact on Spider-Man was addressed more directly in the BND (Brand New Day) arc called American Son, which was a five-part story with Spider-Man struggling to reconcile what he knew and had personally experienced of Norman Osborn's evil with Osborn's rehabilitated and enhanced public image in the wake of his "heroics" in Secret Invasion.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Good points there, and I would add that it should come with a similar elevation of Spider-Man's role in the Marvel Universe.

Yes, this! Spidey is already a big character in the wider Marvel universe. Both he AND Norman could benefit from this!

I mentioned on the previous page how Norman and Batman can run into the same problem of feeling like different characters outside of their corner of the universe. Taking this analogy further, Batman in the DCU seems to work best when his villains are also integrated into the larger DCU, and when we know where they stand relative to other villains. The Young Justice Batman for example feels natural being in the Justice League partly because of The Joker being in the Injustice League, Mr. Freeze being an equal to the other ice villains, and Clayface taking out the whole Team in one episode.

Without context of where Spider-Man stands in the superhero community after 10+ years of being Spider-Man (especially now that Miles Morales exists), I can understand why some people think it's weird that Norman can take on the Avengers but can't handle a working-class dude that is half of his age. Add to this the push to portray Peter as a stunted manchild since One More Day, and the contrast between the Norman in Spider-Man comics and the Norman in the larger MU gets wider.

[Huntsman Spider]

I mentioned on the previous page how Norman and Batman can run into the same problem of feeling like different characters outside of their corner of the universe. Taking this analogy further, Batman in the DCU seems to work best when his villains are also integrated into the larger DCU, and when we know where they stand relative to other villains. The Young Justice Batman for example feels natural being in the Justice League partly because of The Joker being in the Injustice League, Mr. Freeze being an equal to the other ice villains, and Clayface taking out the whole Team in one episode.

Without context of where Spider-Man stands in the superhero community after 10+ years of being Spider-Man (especially now that Miles Morales exists), I can understand why some people think it's weird that Norman can take on the Avengers but can't handle a working-class dude that is half of his age. Add to this the push to portray Peter as a stunted manchild since One More Day, and the contrast between the Norman in Spider-Man comics and the Norman in the larger MU gets wider.

Hmm, I think we get something at least slightly like that in Spider-Island and Ends of the Earth, where Spider-Man's enemies do become major setting-wide threats (potentially planetary in Spider-Island's case, actually planetary in Ends of the Earth's case) and it's Spider-Man who's responsible for rallying the other superheroes to stop them. Ends of the Earth even made it so that the Sinister Six led by Doctor Octopus and specially prepared and armed could beat the Avengers, which ought to be a lesson to them not to underestimate the caliber of villain that Spider-Man fought on a routine basis.

[pageturner]

I mentioned on the previous page how Norman and Batman can run into the same problem of feeling like different characters outside of their corner of the universe. Taking this analogy further, Batman in the DCU seems to work best when his villains are also integrated into the larger DCU, and when we know where they stand relative to other villains. The Young Justice Batman for example feels natural being in the Justice League partly because of The Joker being in the Injustice League, Mr. Freeze being an equal to the other ice villains, and Clayface taking out the whole Team in one episode.

Without context of where Spider-Man stands in the superhero community after 10+ years of being Spider-Man (especially now that Miles Morales exists), I can understand why some people think it's weird that Norman can take on the Avengers but can't handle a working-class dude that is half of his age. Add to this the push to portray Peter as a stunted manchild since One More Day, and the contrast between the Norman in Spider-Man comics and the Norman in the larger MU gets wider.

Given marvel is so NYC centric it is easier to have Norman come into conflict with Moonknight, DD, even Iron Man although he would need to upgrade his goblin suit.
In DC If another characters bad guy came knocking he sent them packing and out of Gotham.

I wonder how loud the wailing would be if we got a Norman led Masters of Evil (or essentially that with a better name.)

[Huntsman Spider]

Given marvel is so NYC centric it is easier to have Norman come into conflict with Moonknight, DD, even Iron Man although he would need to upgrade his goblin suit.
In DC If another characters bad guy came knocking he sent them packing and out of Gotham.

I wonder how loud the wailing would be if we got a Norman led Masters of Evil (or essentially that with a better name.)

I would like something like that, but drop the "of Evil," just go with "The Masters." Could even frame it as a rebellion/uprising against the hypocrisy and corruption of those who would call themselves "good" or "heroes," like how Norman tried to stage his comeback with the public in the New Dark Avengers arc right before Avengers Vs. X-Men.

[classicgmer]

The only real interest i really have left for Norman as it relates to the world of Spider-man would be a confrontation with Ben Reilly so Ben could gain some measure of retribution for the hell he was put through during the Clone Saga and his death (the first one) at the conclusion of said saga.


I know Spencer is going to be using him pretty soon for the Kindred arc but his best stories and showings involving Spider-man are well behind him and to me there's too much potential stories to tell with other characters in the greater Marvel U for him to just be exclusive to Spider-man's world.

[Huntsman Spider]

The only real interest i really have left for Norman as it relates to the world of Spider-man would be a confrontation with Ben Reilly so Ben could gain some measure of retribution for the hell he was put through during the Clone Saga and his death (the first one) at the conclusion of said saga.


I know Spencer is going to be using him pretty soon for the Kindred arc but his best stories and showings involving Spider-man are well behind him and to me there's too much potential stories to tell with other characters in the greater Marvel U for him to just be exclusive to Spider-man's world.

I'd have liked to see that, too. With the resources Ben commanded in his guise as the Jackal, it did strike me as a fair bit of an oversight, to say the least, that he didn't track down Norman for some retribution --- or maybe he did. I mean, Emily Osborn suddenly revealed herself in Go Down Swinging, claiming she'd faked her death, and since the story on her death was originally that it was due to complications from giving birth to Harry . . . well, could say she was one of the "reanimations" Ben made, just to f*** with Norman.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Hmm, I think we get something at least slightly like that in Spider-Island and Ends of the Earth, where Spider-Man's enemies do become major setting-wide threats (potentially planetary in Spider-Island's case, actually planetary in Ends of the Earth's case) and it's Spider-Man who's responsible for rallying the other superheroes to stop them. Ends of the Earth even made it so that the Sinister Six led by Doctor Octopus and specially prepared and armed could beat the Avengers, which ought to be a lesson to them not to underestimate the caliber of villain that Spider-Man fought on a routine basis.

Hmm, I would like to see something like this done with the Green Goblin and not just Norman Osborn.

Given marvel is so NYC centric it is easier to have Norman come into conflict with Moonknight, DD, even Iron Man although he would need to upgrade his goblin suit.
In DC If another characters bad guy came knocking he sent them packing and out of Gotham.

I wonder how loud the wailing would be if we got a Norman led Masters of Evil (or essentially that with a better name.)

I think Norman as an MU villain can have different dynamics with different heroes. His versatility is one advantage even Kingpin arguably doesn't have. The Kingpin may be an enemy to a bunch of heroes in the MU, but the heroes tend to hate him for the same reasons. Outside of Daredevil, Kingpin doesn't have a unique dynamic with anyone.

Norman however would be hated by different heroes for different reasons. Spider-Man hates Norman for how authoritarian and shady he is, but someone like Iron Man would see less of a problem with that in principle. Iron Man's main concern would be Norman's unpredictability and Trickster nature, which Spider-Man wouldn't take issue with in principle because he has those traits too.

[your_name_here]

Osborn was fantastic in Dark Reign, and absolutely cemented himself as worthy of being MU-wide villain (avoiding cosmic, of course)

[Tony Stark]

Osborn was fantastic in Dark Reign, and absolutely cemented himself as worthy of being MU-wide villain (avoiding cosmic, of course)

He really was. DARK REIGN Was great all around. Some of the mini series featuring lesser known villains were great as well.

[Huntsman Spider]

Hmm, I would like to see something like this done with the Green Goblin and not just Norman Osborn.



I think Norman as an MU villain can have different dynamics with different heroes. His versatility is one advantage even Kingpin arguably doesn't have. The Kingpin may be an enemy to a bunch of heroes in the MU, but the heroes tend to hate him for the same reasons. Outside of Daredevil, Kingpin doesn't have a unique dynamic with anyone.

Norman however would be hated by different heroes for different reasons. Spider-Man hates Norman for how authoritarian and shady he is, but someone like Iron Man would see less of a problem with that in principle. Iron Man's main concern would be Norman's unpredictability and Trickster nature, which Spider-Man wouldn't take issue with in principle because he has those traits too.

I think Spider-Man's reasons for hating Osborn go a lot deeper than just not liking how Norman operates, given how much personal pain and misery Norman has inflicted on him over the years. That said, I'd think Iron Man would hate Osborn for the same reason he might have hated Stane and Hammer --- those guys are basically unreformed, unrepentant versions of the man he used to be, and Osborn is all that plus an unhinged murdering psychopath. If we got other heroes involved, I could see Daredevil hating him because Osborn frequently uses his money to twist the law so he never has to pay for the harm he's inflicted on others, which would deeply infuriate him as someone dedicated to the law even if he has to break it himself as a vigilante. Songbird would also have more personal reasons for hating Osborn, as the Thunderbolts were her chance to redeem herself and Osborn turned the team back into self-serving villains posing as heroes that he used as a springboard for his rise to power.