DC 5G: the Replacements

[Mr.B]

They probably wanted to have legacies side by side with their namesakes. Anyway seems like the aging is dropped too.

[Midnight_v]

Do you think it would actually help now? I'm not sure we're at a place where attempts to expand the IP farm in the direct market won't just fall on deaf ears more often than not.

Its the PRIMARY thing that works... You're trying to "expand the Ip" but do you think that mediocrity and swearing fealty to whatever's trending is going to sell books?
Newsflash that's how you get out of touch universally panned properties such as New warriors.

If the bar for new properties is set at "Alan Moore" then we're all in trouble.

That's part of the problem; if new characters need Moore level of quality while established characters can get away with Scott Lobdell, then we're basically stuck with the characters we have, plus one new character every ten years who manages to reach those lofty Moore-level heights long enough to sustain at Lobdell levels.

You have to at least be Rob Liefield .... Deadpool level. . . but every 10 years for an "Iconic" or "Franchise" player... every 240 books you get a character that can sustain 240 more is actually great.

You don't get "Foolkiller" to be a house hold name like Spider-Man by putting him in a spidey suit.

The problem is the small group of people essentially yelling "What we want? CHANGE! When do we want it!? Now!".

Well you can't get positive change on demand. That takes hard work.

[jetengine]

You're using my argument to disprove my argument.

As I said, they have the multiverse, but they don't use it. Instead they do, as you said, just use those characters as cheap deaths in crossovers that just kill the multiverse again. But they don't have to. There's no cap on how many books they can put out and in what format. They can do a book on a different earth just as easily as they can do a book on the main earth. They just don't. I guess they feel a JSA book would sell less than "Batman Family Book #78246."

And continuity is a problem because they constantly make it a problem by either using only what they want of it or completely ignoring it, and thus needing a re-tooling Crisis-like event every 5-10 years just to fix what they never should have screwed up to start with.

No I'm using your argument to point out what will happen. Because it literally already happened with the earth 2 line.

From a corporate perspective extra earths are irrelevant. Cant tie them into events, have to bullshit for Batman or other popular heroes to turn up for flagging sales (cause their gonna want young Batman not old Batman), have redundant characters.

Leaving them on other earths is a death sentence

[jetengine]

Its the PRIMARY thing that works... You're trying to "expand the Ip" but do you think that mediocrity and swearing fealty to whatever's trending is going to sell books?
Newsflash that's how you get out of touch universally panned properties such as New Warriors

*eyeroll*

Oh no not new warriors. The franchise that died on the vine in the 90s, hasnt even come out yet, is being written by a comedy guy and has triggered endless trolls. We MUST save New Warriors!

[Midnight_v]

*eyeroll*

Oh no not new warriors. The franchise that died on the vine in the 90s, hasnt even come out yet, is being written by a comedy guy and has triggered endless trolls. We MUST save New Warriors!

I don't care.

...I don't even know what you're talking about.


I guess you don't like that as an example? So what. Its an example not some thesis I'm trying to pass off. You'll be ok.

Leaving them on other earths is a death sentence

I agree. Theoretcially its a cool access point but in practice (and this is anecdotal admittedly) every alt world is doomed.

At best strip-mined for characters then forgotten about kingdom come/Ultimate universe, at worst literally destroyed to make it different enough or whatever Nu52 Earth2/New Universe and so on.

Probably, not a good move if that's a pattern that's identifiable

[iron chimp]

If the bar for new properties is set at "Alan Moore" then we're all in trouble.

That's part of the problem; if new characters need Moore level of quality while established characters can get away with Scott Lobdell, then we're basically stuck with the characters we have, plus one new character every ten years who manages to reach those lofty Moore-level heights long enough to sustain at Lobdell levels.

Its not just moore tho - ennis, morrison, milligan, vaughan, wood, willingham etc etc all broke new work at DC.

Every other publisher survives to a greater or lesser extent on breaking new work month in month out. If DC cant do it when everyone else can then its not nostalgia, the shops, the market, the distributors, the readers fault - its DCs fault.

I cant even imagine Penguin books saying oh yeah we havent had a hit new work in 10 years or EMI saying yeah we havent broken a new band in 10 years.

[Mr.B]

A set up like battleworld would work.

[Vampire Savior]

Its not just moore tho - ennis, morrison, milligan, vaughan, wood, willingham etc etc all broke new work at DC.

I cant even imagine Penguin books saying oh yeah we havent had a hit new work in 10 years or EMI saying yeah we havent broken a new band in 10 years.

They were able to do that in large part because DC--again, what I suggested--tapped into a new/different market. The trade paperback market, which, at the time, attracted a different audience than the typical superhero stuff. Not only that, but those (often British) writers had a different voice that attracted a different set of readers.

[Steven Caldwell]

I think that if they wanted to do "younger characters with familiar names" it should have been an "ultimate" story line running for all the characters. Then everyone could have the best of both worlds.
Then again, I am a simple man. With simple ideas.

[Sacred Knight]

No I'm using your argument to point out what will happen. Because it literally already happened with the earth 2 line.

From a corporate perspective extra earths are irrelevant. Cant tie them into events, have to bullshit for Batman or other popular heroes to turn up for flagging sales (cause their gonna want young Batman not old Batman), have redundant characters.

Leaving them on other earths is a death sentence

Other Earths are irrelevant because DC treats them as irrelevant. That changes the second they decide to make them relevant. That changes the second they stop defaulting to Batman for everything, and to a much lesser degree Superman. The original idea for Earth 2 was fine and working great when Robinson was on the book; the idea of losing the Trinity and moving on was very much accepted and doing well. It was losing that original vision when Robinson left that flagged sales, and then defaulted back to original Batman and Superman after that. There is absolutely nothing inherently poison about alt Earths though. For 30 some years DC Comics operated on a two Earth system that was very successful. Only difference between then and now is that they were committed to both worlds. That's all it would take, commitment to another Earth(s) if they wanted it. They haven't to date really wanted it hence the irrelevancy. They're the ones though who perpetuate that there's only one continuity that matters.

[Vordan]

Generations is still missing from the revised July solicits.

[iron chimp]

They were able to do that in large part because DC--again, what I suggested--tapped into a new/different market. The trade paperback market, which, at the time, attracted a different audience than the typical superhero stuff. Not only that, but those (often British) writers had a different voice that attracted a different set of readers.

Yes i agree. Its bringing in a whole new set of readers using writers and artists with different voices. They proved they could do it and then lost them.

But then the counter argument is... yeah those people are never coming back. They left to read OGNs and other things and they are gone for good. No.matter how good one might think monthly floppy format is (which is my fav format) theres a hell of a lot of people now who prefer a nice hardback ogn.

So floppies are doomed to keep rejigging the same formula and fighting over the same sized pie .

My patience reading so much pulp, waiting years between issues sometimes from indies, books just suddenly disappearing for good without finishing up etc is def getting exhausted these days. So i def cant blame others for switching formats.

If it was an easy fix someone would have done it. Theres certainly been a hell of a lot of different initiatives over last 20 ýears

[Midnight_v]

My patience reading so much pulp, waiting years between issues sometimes from indies, books just suddenly disappearing for good without finishing up etc is def getting exhausted these days. So i def cant blame others for switching formats.

Funny you should bring up "Pulp" ... theres a lot of conflation about whats good for the industry change/approach/distribution...


The cost of comics is too high. One of the great "LURES" of comics was the inexpensiveness inherent to them pulp books were the same way. These monthly periodicals
Id argue are way above inflation.

A candy, a coke and a couple funny books is so far in the dust now that... I mean... and this is crappy but how can comics still cost 4-5 dollars a book and Covid-19 is altering the economy as we speak?

Pulp books were made on pulp because it was cheap. Cheap to make cheap to buy.

I looked up one day as an adult and realized I was buying just 80 to 150 bucks OR MORE! a month on comic books. I budgeted for it in my entertainment costs, I was with it. . . but the offerings being
mediocre, and interactions with pros... it just turned me off to it so much.

Theres a lot of talk about "changing voices" and "new audiences" but ... the biggest misrepresentation isn't ONLY that its not cool, but its stupid costly to get into now.

Its silly, a young person today gets to choose between a comic and 5 dollars on his favorite game inapp purchase clothes or resources or what have you.


Lastly, you're not going to get the appeal that manga has reaching out to a tiny demographic that isn't interested in the "Hero's Journey", you get that and "Fruits Basket/Peach" style things first and formost from manga.

Our writers are a little out of touch and vision. Dan Diddio kinda illustrates that well, but theres a LOOOT more who don't get it.


5G would have been the equivalent of Ultimate Marvels "Ultimatum"/Nu52 something that separates people and changes everything for the worse.

[iron chimp]

Funny you should bring up "Pulp" ... theres a lot of conflation about whats good for the industry change/approach/distribution...


The cost of comics is too high. One of the great "LURES" of comics was the inexpensiveness inherent to them pulp books were the same way. These monthly periodicals
Id argue are way above inflation.

A candy, a coke and a couple funny books is so far in the dust now that... I mean... and this is crappy but how can comics still cost 4-5 dollars a book and Covid-19 is altering the economy as we speak?

Pulp books were made on pulp because it was cheap. Cheap to make cheap to buy.

I looked up one day as an adult and realized I was buying just 80 to 150 bucks OR MORE! a month on comic books. I budgeted for it in my entertainment costs, I was with it. . . but the offerings being
mediocre, and interactions with pros... it just turned me off to it so much.

Theres a lot of talk about "changing voices" and "new audiences" but ... the biggest misrepresentation isn't ONLY that its not cool, but its stupid costly to get into now.

Its silly, a young person today gets to choose between a comic and 5 dollars on his favorite game inapp purchase clothes or resources or what have you.


Lastly, you're not going to get the appeal that manga has reaching out to a tiny demographic that isn't interested in the "Hero's Journey", you get that and "Fruits Basket/Peach" style things first and formost from manga.

Our writers are a little out of touch and vision. Dan Diddio kinda illustrates that well, but theres a LOOOT more who don't get it.


5G would have been the equivalent of Ultimate Marvels "Ultimatum"/Nu52 something that separates people and changes everything for the worse.

Yes the irony of expensive pulp.... the options for kids getting into monthly comics are virtually non existent now. $8 for a new marvel #1.... just ridiculous... but there they always are at top of the list.

Its a hard sell to even explain the attraction of monthly books to people any more

So i have to wait a month to get 20 pages? Yep!
And its more expensive than the collection? Yep!
And i hide them in a box rather than on my bookshelf? Yep!
And they are full of adverts? Yep!
And im buying blind with no idea if its going to be good until ive paid for the whole arc? Yep!
And i might have to special order it? Yep!
And the story could be interupted at any minute by an unexpected crossover, random fill in issue, or the author might fall out with editorial, or the same artist might not do the whole story? Yep!
Yeah.. that sounds terrible.

Its a tough sell. Even as the duscussion unfolds i feel like im talking myself into slashing my pull list and moving to OGNs. Im bitching on complaining 'wheres all the art styles we used to have' or genres we used to have - but they never went, they just changed formats and i stubbornly didnt follow.

[skyvolt2000]

Yes the irony of expensive pulp.... the options for kids getting into monthly comics are virtually non existent now. $8 for a new marvel #1.... just ridiculous... but there they always are at top of the list.

Its a hard sell to even explain the attraction of monthly books to people any more

So i have to wait a month to get 20 pages? Yep!
And i hide them in a box rather than on my bookshelf? Yep!
And they are full of adverts? Yep!
And im buying blind with no idea if its going to be good until ive paid for the whole arc? Yep!
And i might have to special order it? Yep!

Its a tough sell. Even as the duscussion unfolds i feel like im talking myself into slashing my pull list and moving to OGNs. Im bitching on complaining 'wheres all the art styles we used to have' or genres we used to have - but they never went, they just changed formats and i stubbornly didnt follow.

Well most of them left the direct market because they grew tired of the antics. Why have your book in a market that doesn't want you? Or is a strain due to work load.

Image's Sex went straight trade and I think they are on volume 7 now.
Boom's Goldie Vance and Backstagers are OGN/novels.
Image's Motor Crush went OGN because of workloads and after stores didn't want the book in stores. Never mind it was the top selling trade the month it came out.

And funny you bring up

And the story could be interupted at any minute by an unexpected crossover, random fill in issue, or the author might fall out with editorial, or the same artist might not do the whole story? Yep!

Vault Comics just had a book like this. The first volume ended on a cliffhanger (or sorts) and now they don't know when they will start on volume 2. Also looking at you Aftermath's Stronghold and Scout Comic's Source. We won't talk Dark horse's Bankshot or Image's No Mercy.

The 8 dollar marvel book is there because SOMEONE is always willing to buy those variants. New 52, Rebirth & ANAM at one store I go to-had those first issues and variants sell like crazy. Even Grifter-a book NO ONE wanted but a copy was ordered because a guy wanted a complete set.

And its more expensive than the collection? Yep!

That depends on when you go after. Ebay and Half Price books are bad mistresses. The back issue market is a killer. Looking at YOU Midtown Comics-99 cent and 40% sales back to back.