DC 5G: the Replacements

[skyvolt2000]

I never understand these arguments ... the sex pistols were most hated band in the uk, but also one of the most successful, fighting / scuffles at igor stravinsky premier, kraftwerk were described as trash in biggest uk music magazine - people being vehemently opposed to something means nothing if enough others buy it to make it economically viable.

The Sex Pistols were not limited to a certain market that you had to hunt for.

They can be hated in the UK but when you allow them to be seen EVERYWHERE-they can find an audience.

The Get Along Gang lasted 6 issues at Marvel. Yet in the UK they lasted 90 same with Transformers.


The issue here is you are battling a direct market that has issues with POC as lead especially under the Dc or Marvel banner.

Put a top artist on a Luke book and you will see the GREATEST gymnastic routines known to MAN to justify not buying the book.

Because every FLAW that artist has was acceptable when it's certain WHITE characters. See Greg Land. That tracing of certain material was fine when it's Emma Frost but it's an issue when it's Misty Knight or Spectrum.

Put a top writer on it and you will see-"We got to BAND together to get this book axed because that writer and artist are wasting time on a book I (not data) but I say will not sell." Luke Cage among others had this done to them.

Then you get the store owner who does NOT want that book in his store no matter what. Motor Crush and Archie Afterlife and Dark were victims of this.

Now if we are talking OGN-that trolls CAN'T screw with-fine but a monthly forget it.

It's not worth the time.

[iron chimp]

The Sex Pistols were not limited to a certain market that you had to hunt for.

They can be hated in the UK but when you allow them to be seen EVERYWHERE-they can find an audience.

The Get Along Gang lasted 6 issues at Marvel. Yet in the UK they lasted 90 same with Transformers.


The issue here is you are battling a direct market that has issues with POC as lead especially under the Dc or Marvel banner.

Put a top artist on a Luke book and you will see the GREATEST gymnastic routines known to MAN to justify not buying the book.

Because every FLAW that artist has was acceptable when it's certain WHITE characters. See Greg Land. That tracing of certain material was fine when it's Emma Frost but it's an issue when it's Misty Knight or Spectrum.

Put a top writer on it and you will see-"We got to BAND together to get this book axed because that writer and artist are wasting time on a book I (not data) but I say will not sell." Luke Cage among others had this done to them.

Then you get the store owner who does NOT want that book in his store no matter what. Motor Crush and Archie Afterlife and Dark were victims of this.

Now if we are talking OGN-that trolls CAN'T screw with-fine but a monthly forget it.

It's not worth the time.

You are right in that have been structural problems and they will date back all the way to all negro comics #1.

But when i see a book like hip hop family tree get lavished with praise (and i think that was sold in singles) its ok cool... thats a new original book on the stands. Im bummed i only found out about it later and missed the singles but its all in trades now and on my list.

Ive seen it both ways - hardline conservatives trying to get books pulled off the shelves (black kiss, faust, et al) and hardline sjws who completely misread the tone of books (skin, young hitler, and lord horror here in uk are three famous ones) and tried to get them pulled.

F'em all. Get the preorders in and get supporting whats good for you. Cash will shift all these idiots away and let people read what they want.

[Midnight_v]

Oh you mean make him an actual character instead of slapping him in the batsuit for a 2 years switch back and then watch him fade into obscurity again

This. I mean its I mean not only kinda low-balling a character, but its pretty weak-minded to look at want a character to get spotlight, but to believe the only way the character can shine is being another property.

I looked a Miles Morales game preview yesterday and I smh and thought. This ... they could have given this same push to ta young night thrasher. So many properties get passed over under this cowardly replacement era. When really they could do a lot better.

[Korath]

This. I mean its I mean not only kinda low-balling a character, but its pretty weak-minded to look at want a character to get spotlight, but to believe the only way the character can shine is being another property.

I looked a Miles Morales game preview yesterday and I smh and thought. This ... they could have given this same push to ta young night thrasher. So many properties get passed over under this cowardly replacement era. When really they could do a lot better.

No, they couldn't have. Nobody would have bought a young Night trasher book because LCS would have boycotted it, peoples would have screamed bloody murder and the likes. Miles' initial selling was because his hero name is Spider-man, there is no way around it.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'm a fan of Far Sector and I think it might be cool to retool that into an seperate universe. You could use the characters of 5g and see if they could work there or just create new characters to fill those slots.

[skyvolt2000]

This. I mean its I mean not only kinda low-balling a character, but its pretty weak-minded to look at want a character to get spotlight, but to believe the only way the character can shine is being another property.

I looked a Miles Morales game preview yesterday and I smh and thought. This ... they could have given this same push to ta young night thrasher. So many properties get passed over under this cowardly replacement era. When really they could do a lot better.

It might be cowardly but history has shown it to work.


Look at how they behaved towards Marvel-it did not matter if a POC was a legacy, new or established-ALL were attacked.

Some like Luke Cage saw a call to boycott their books.

Others like Mosaic saw Marvel get ripped for trying to promote a new character.

Attempt to expand Black Panther saw PUSH BACK (before realizing the books were bad) as it was offensive to expand his franchise. Same thing we saw with Deadpool & GOTG & Dr Strange.

Any thread about sales ONLY targeted POC lead books.

Any thread about a reboot called for the REMOVAL of POC.

Night Thrasher would have seen the same grief and calls of "why is Marvel WASTING resources on a dead character?" Something they did not say with Jean Grey and Logan and Professor X.


Now lets look at Dc's POC success

In terms of solo issues from mini or ongoing-must have more than 6 issues.
Kyle
Cassandra Cain
Steel
Jaime Reyes
Jason Rusch
Cyborg
Batwing
Black Lighting
Azreal (Michael Lane)
John Stewart
Silencer
Sideways
Dr Fate (the nephew of Kent)

4 out of 13 are originals

If I was to toss in Milestone it would be 7 out of 16.

Marvel
Black Panther
Luke Cage
Shang Chi
Miles
Ms Marvel
Moon Girl
War Machine
Blade
X-23 (as herself & Wolverine)
Sam Wilson (see X-23)
Shuri
Nightwatch
Deathlok
Night Thrasher
Riri Williams

11 out of 15 are originals. Riri NEVER called herself Iron man.

[Holt]

No, they couldn't have.

I can't believe people still pretend otherwise. Literally every time this discussion comes up and someone makes the claim "They should've been an original character instead!," everyone is hard-pressed to name any sort of new character with a completely original identity who has had any sort of staying power the last decade. Was literally just discussing DC's vaunted new generation of heroes from from only a few years ago and how all those books except The Terrifics fizzled out.

The reason there's a Miles Morales Spider-Man video game for the PS5 and not Night Thrasher is because one name carries far more cache than the other, full stop.

[Midnight_v]

I can't believe people still pretend otherwise. Literally every time this discussion comes up and someone makes the claim "They should've been an original character instead!," everyone is hard-pressed to name any sort of new character with a completely original identity who has had any sort of staying power the last decade. Was literally just discussing DC's vaunted new generation of heroes from from only a few years ago and how all those books except The Terrifics fizzled out.

The reason there's a Miles Morales Spider-Man video game for the PS5 and not Night Thrasher is because one name carries far more cache than the other, full stop.

Not People. Me.
Its not a pretend, because I disagree with you and that tactic.

I say that because I'd PERSONALLY buy that.

What I won't buy is any replacement character in pushed via this method.

Mostly because it pushes the bs narrative that minority characters can't stand on their own. Nonsense.

It might be cowardly but history has shown it to work.

Its is its weak and cowardly and flys in the face of ALL the AWESOME existing characters that DON'T get that push.

Ala the aforementioned (though franly I'm not really a fan of that guy).

Though Static Shock comes to mind as an Original character that stood on his own, and what was missing...? Rights lost, blah, blah, blah... but the point stands.
He didn't have to be derivative to succeed but he did need "The Push" tm.

A lot of these minority characters don't fail because of racism, anymore than the multitude of white ones do, but its a pretty handy excuse if we're honest.
Most characters fail because of missed timing - bad writing - lack of investment ala failure to push.

Now this character is derivative but you'll see that Cassandra Cain was abandoned by DC much to the OUTRAGE of her supporters. I feel this same thing is being done with Jaime Reyes and a few others...
but the failure is more about dropping the ball than targeted hate.

If moonknight can be the focus of a big event at marvel, then poc characters could too.

But.. oh well 5G is dead in the water, and I'll give stale conversation the bread knife.

I want poc's 2... so... where is Josiah Power, Dc?

Do the work. Worry less about what stores say. things at going digital anyway.

[Holt]

What I won't buy is any replacement character in pushed via this method.

And that's fine, I suppose, but I'd be willing to bet a kidney a Miles Morales video game is going to sell circles around a Night Thrasher game, or a Silencer game or a Mosaic game. Like I said, people swear up and down that creating new characters from whole cloth is the way to go, but pretty much across the board the new characters with any sort of staying power the last 15 years have been legacy heroes, while the others who weren't have more or less faded away.

It sucks and it's a symptom of wider problems in the industry, but it is what it is.

[Midnight_v]

And that's fine, I suppose, but I'd be willing to bet a kidney a Miles Morales video game is going to sell circles around a Night Thrasher game, or a Silencer game or a Mosaic game. Like I said, people swear up and down that creating new characters from whole cloth is the way to go, but pretty much across the board the new characters with any sort of staying power the last 15 years have been legacy heroes, while the others who weren't have more or less faded away.

It sucks and it's a symptom of wider problems in the industry, but it is what it is.

Hold up. I re-read what I wrote and I don't like the way I'm sounding. I ... I FULLY support characters of every walk of life, and I DO understand why people support this idea. I'm not like a lot of people that are really being disingenuous about the issue.

I just feel like its symptom of the industry that actually COULD and should be fought. I'm not so tunnelvisioned by my own ideas to think that I CAN'T be wrong about something but consider this Holt

"a Miles Morales video game is going to sell circles around a Night Thrasher game, or a Silencer game or a Mosaic game."

Well **** yeah, NOW. Its been years developing that character, but when you typed it out there...

The Silencer (a dc comics game) has some gravitas to it as a game, and as I envison it suddenly as a rogue-like or souls-born style game? It will sell hand over fist.

Which is how I sit back and see a lot of things nobody ever thought about swamp thing till Morrison. So Kid Quantum or static shock can do real work in that field without us just race swaping the winder soldier or whoever

[Vampire Savior]

I believe it's several times more beneficial for PoC to be their own original characters. I'm never going to capitulate to the line of thinking of, "Well, just make a black Spider-Man," because, I think it's defeatist. "Oh, well that won't work because the audience isn't ready for an original black character." "Oh, that won't work because new characters don't work."

It is at least defeatist when you're doing that instead of creating PoC characters to occupy their own mantles and mythologies.

Rather than thinking about all the reasons why that won't work and surrendering to them, I'm more interested in investing in and discovering solutions.

New PoC characters with their own identities can work and be financially successful, but those involved have to really want to do that, and be committed in putting in the effort that may require. First of all, the characters would need to be "good". I know "good" is hugely subjective, but I'm personally skeptical that characters from something like New Age of Heroes were strong enough concepts to ever cut the mustard. If you're putting out ramshackle comics and characters, then of course they won't work.

For a company like DC...or rather, WB, the best way to get new PoC characters to work is with cross media efforts. If people are willing to watch Craig of the Creek, Nella the Princess Knight, Dora the Explorer, and Doctor McStuffins, they are ready for PoC in leading roles. If the comic reading audience is stuck in it's ways with their dusty as hell 80 year old characters, then roll out new characters in cartoons, films, and video games, and have accompanying comics as part of the campaign. I understand wanting to use comics as some kind of proving ground before you invest in something more expensive with these characters, but if you're smart, you'll know the new characters aren't working with any kind of level playing field over there.

So, again, I think new PoC characters can work really well, but the people behind the scenes creating and funding the projects would need to purposefully want to make a specific PoC character work. They would need to have the focus, initiative, and effort to make that happens.
In short, it's an issue of them not being interested enough, because making a black Spider-Man or black Green Lantern, or whatever is just easier for them, and they're not interested in or thinking about the long term adverse effects of a PoC character forever being positioned behind a white character. Miles Morales will likely always be alternate Spider-Man. He gets a new video game because Peter Parker had a successful video game, and if Parker didn't, he likely wouldn't. John Stewart will likely always be also-ran Green Lantern, and there's no way in hell Black Batman would ever be much of anything compared to Bruce Wayne, the default Batman.

That's why I have the views I have on this subject.

[skyvolt2000]

I understand wanting to use comics as some kind of proving ground before you invest in something more expensive with these characters, but if you're smart, you'll know the new characters aren't working with any kind of level playing field over there.

Why would someone use comic book sales as a proving ground? Especially for POC?

I would view that as being bias and probably discriminatory.
If I am being told Duke Thomas has to sell higher than say Hal Jordan to JUSTIFY usage. I am going to look at you funny.
Where is this successful long running comic for Antman? Who has 2 movies.
Where is this long running comic for Stargirl? Who never had an ongoing and hasn't had a mini since 1996.
Where is this long running series Rocket Raccoon? A FAILED 1985 mini series owner.

Blade owns 3 (soon 4) movies and 2 tv shows.
Static owns a hit tv series that only Digimon had higher ratings than and production costs ended the show.
Bloodshot doesn't own a long running series. yet has a movie.
So does MANTHING.
Legends of Tomorrow has a collection of cast off that couldn't hold books.
Vixen has her own show.

Comic book sales mean NOTHING. If all these folks can find audiences OUTSIDE of comic books-maybe the issue is not them but your comic book audience.

Maybe someone needs to ask why POC are not welcomed in comics? When someone tries to build them UP?

Because most of the push back has NOTHING to do with story quality, it's a battle for justification of existence. Lead by folks who would never read the books in the first place.
Yet will tell you a Moon Girl book is killing comic book stores because she is "not" selling.

Moon Girl has 9 volumes.and 47 issues. How did she NOT sell? She did it for 4 years. Without a restart (Carol Danvers, Black Panther, Deathstroke, Hal Jordan) or tie in to events or variants from a certain guy (SUPERGIRL).

Do I need to list all the white guys whose books she outlasted? Like Shazam.

DC has to get a backbone. Tell these entitlement folks-we are going to invest in establish POC-you can read them or not but we are not going to stop. You can call Comicsgate to harass or call Warner Brothers front office to complain.

If DC doesn't try it SOMEONE else will and as we have seen ARE doing. It does not look good for Dc when Bleeding Cool list race related lead books and mainstream Dc is left out. American Way & American Carnage are Vertigo books. Far Sector is not in trade yet. Even Naomi & Batman & Signal got ignored.

[Robotman]

Remember when DC tried to replace some existing mid tier heroes with more diverse characters? Jason Rousch, Ryan Choi, and Jaime Reyes. All those characters are currently shelved and the originals are all back.

[Stingo]

Why would someone use comic book sales as a proving ground? Especially for POC?

I would view that as being bias and probably discriminatory.
If I am being told Duke Thomas has to sell higher than say Hal Jordan to JUSTIFY usage. I am going to look at you funny.
Where is this successful long running comic for Antman? Who has 2 movies.
Where is this long running comic for Stargirl? Who never had an ongoing and hasn't had a mini since 1996.
Where is this long running series Rocket Raccoon? A FAILED 1985 mini series owner.

Blade owns 3 (soon 4) movies and 2 tv shows.
Static owns a hit tv series that only Digimon had higher ratings than and production costs ended the show.
Bloodshot doesn't own a long running series. yet has a movie.
So does MANTHING.
Legends of Tomorrow has a collection of cast off that couldn't hold books.
Vixen has her own show.

Comic book sales mean NOTHING. If all these folks can find audiences OUTSIDE of comic books-maybe the issue is not them but your comic book audience.

Maybe someone needs to ask why POC are not welcomed in comics? When someone tries to build them UP?

Because most of the push back has NOTHING to do with story quality, it's a battle for justification of existence. Lead by folks who would never read the books in the first place.
Yet will tell you a Moon Girl book is killing comic book stores because she is "not" selling.

Moon Girl has 9 volumes.and 47 issues. How did she NOT sell? She did it for 4 years. Without a restart (Carol Danvers, Black Panther, Deathstroke, Hal Jordan) or tie in to events or variants from a certain guy (SUPERGIRL).

Do I need to list all the white guys whose books she outlasted? Like Shazam.

DC has to get a backbone. Tell these entitlement folks-we are going to invest in establish POC-you can read them or not but we are not going to stop. You can call Comicsgate to harass or call Warner Brothers front office to complain.

If DC doesn't try it SOMEONE else will and as we have seen ARE doing. It does not look good for Dc when Bleeding Cool list race related lead books and mainstream Dc is left out. American Way & American Carnage are Vertigo books. Far Sector is not in trade yet. Even Naomi & Batman & Signal got ignored.

Some good points here. Some I agree with, others I don't.

I did want to jump in with a quick corrective and say that Stargirl actually had an ongoing series (Stars and Stripe) before it was cancelled after fifteen issues and she never had a mini. She premiered in 1999.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I was a fan of Blindspot from Charles Soule's run on Daredevil and I wish minority legacy characters were designed more like him. He felt his own man and not some tagalong kid or mini-me. I'm like "Screw making Iron Fist asian, just give Blindspot his own show" or comic etc.