DC 5G: the Replacements

[leo619]

I just think it's indisputable that a lot of the changes made by the New 52 were undone or retconned out eventually, which outside media quickly jumped on, even before Rebirth happened.

One could say this is DC caving into the demands of the "classic" mindset, but one could also say it was the publisher or the creators actually preferring the return of the things the New 52 did away with.

No one disputed that much of the changes from New 52 was retcon out. Look at my previous posts. My post disputed your statement that New 52 changes were unsustainable and that's what caused the drop in sales. As stated before, many like to indicate that New 52 crashed in burn in terms of sales primarily because of the changes made, while Rebirth somehow was a saving grace even though sales wise, has been worse overall than New 52.

One could say that DC was caving to classic fan mindset, and now one can DC wants to try to reach new demographics and one could say the publishers wants to try new things with 5g. Now are fans willing to make those statements largely depend upon their interest.

The concept of the Big Seven as the dominant team is "back-to-basics," although 5G will probably finally write out Cyborg's founding status with the new timeline.

Except the Justice League has almost always been the dominant team, that didn't change with new 52. New 52 just established what the
new big seven were versus what the previous big seven use to be. And there hasn't been any rumors or content stating Cyborg's founding status was being removed.

Golden Age Superman is back-to-basics, and even beyond that he was already depicted as relatively standard Superman in other books (including the first actual New 52 book, Justice League) and soon after T-shirt and jeans Supes.
having his main relationship with wonder woman,

Right, Golden Age Superman was based around t-shirt and jeans, he also didn't have a relationship
with Lois Lane, and his main relationship was with wonder woman. Gotcha. Were there some elements from Golden Age Superman? Of course, just like there were some elements of Static from Milestone in his book, that still didn't change the fact that a lot change for him under New 52.

Azzarello's Wonder Woman definitely did not catch on past the comic arc.

That doesn't matter to the point I made.

Then Rebirth was as much back-to-basics as the New 52 was.

Keep telling yourself that, we'll agree to disagree.

[leo619]

Im using these links.

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2010.html
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2011.html
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2012.html

2010 dc units 34% $ 30%
2011 dc units 36% $ 31%
2012 dv units 36% $ 32%

Oh You mean the full picture:

2010

MARKET SHARES
Share of Overall Units
Marvel
43.35%
DC
34.00%
Dark Horse
3.88%
Image
3.71%
IDW
3.45%
Dynamite
2.52%
Boom
1.77%
Viz
0.68%
Avatar
0.50%
Eaglemoss
0.20%
Other
5.95%


2011

MARKET SHARES
Share of Overall Units
Marvel
40.93%
DC
36.77%
Image
4.71%
IDW
3.78%
Dark Horse
3.35%
Dynamite
2.85%
Boom
1.43%
Avatar
0.54%
Viz
0.47%
Eaglemoss
0.23%
Other
4.93%


2012
Share of Overall Units
Marvel
37.59%
DC
36.75%
Image
6.60%
IDW
4.36%
Dark Horse
3.80%
Dynamite
3.00%
Boom
1.53%
Zenescope
0.74%
Avatar
0.73%
Archie
0.69%
Other
4.22%

And when you compare that to even 2009

Share of Overall Units
Marvel
45.63%
DC
32.22%
Dark Horse
4.05%
IDW
3.49%
Image
3.25%
Dynamic Forces
2.16%
Boom
1.22%
Other
7.98%


Like I said, DC was steadily competitive with Marvel post New 52. It wasn't until Star Wars came in where things went down hill for DC.

[iron chimp]

Oh You mean the full picture:

2010

MARKET SHARES
Share of Overall Units
Marvel
43.35%
DC
34.00%
Dark Horse
3.88%
Image
3.71%
IDW
3.45%
Dynamite
2.52%
Boom
1.77%
Viz
0.68%
Avatar
0.50%
Eaglemoss
0.20%
Other
5.95%


2011

MARKET SHARES
Share of Overall Units
Marvel
40.93%
DC
36.77%
Image
4.71%
IDW
3.78%
Dark Horse
3.35%
Dynamite
2.85%
Boom
1.43%
Avatar
0.54%
Viz
0.47%
Eaglemoss
0.23%
Other
4.93%


2012
Share of Overall Units
Marvel
37.59%
DC
36.75%
Image
6.60%
IDW
4.36%
Dark Horse
3.80%
Dynamite
3.00%
Boom
1.53%
Zenescope
0.74%
Avatar
0.73%
Archie
0.69%
Other
4.22%

And when you compare that to even 2009

Share of Overall Units
Marvel
45.63%
DC
32.22%
Dark Horse
4.05%
IDW
3.49%
Image
3.25%
Dynamic Forces
2.16%
Boom
1.22%
Other
7.98%


Like I said, DC was steadily competitive with Marvel post New 52. It wasn't until Star Wars came in where things went down hill for DC.

Yes exactly; the full picture.

And DCs marketshare hardly changed between 2009 and 2012.

[leo619]

Yes exactly; the full picture.

And DCs marketshare hardly changed between 2009 and 2012.

Going up a few % is huge for DC, especially to the point to where they were literally neck and neck with Marvel in 2012. Unless someone was somehow expecting DC for the entire year to be doing in 40% percentile (which I don't think has ever happened) New 52 during the initial stages was definitely a selling success. Then Star Wars and ANAD stopped their momentum lol.

[Frontier]

No one disputed that much of the changes from New 52 was retcon out. Look at my previous posts. My post disputed your statement that New 52 changes were unsustainable and that's what caused the drop in sales. As stated before, many like to indicate that New 52 crashed in burn in terms of sales primarily because of the changes made, while Rebirth somehow was a saving grace even though sales wise, has been worse overall than New 52.

And my point is that it's hard to quantify how much the changes impacted sales at all with the very different comic markets both initiatives came out in.

The "newness" of the New 52 wasn't sustainable and neither was the idea of Rebirthing the DCU.

By comparison Fresh Start for Marvel seems to have been more consistent.

One could say that DC was caving to classic fan mindset, and now one can DC wants to try to reach new demographics and one could say the publishers wants to try new things with 5g. Now are fans willing to make those statements largely depend upon their interest.

DC should always be trying to reach as many demographics as they can. Frankly, that's what they seemed to be going for with Rebirth rather then wholesale going for "classic" over "new" fans.

Except the Justice League has almost always been the dominant team, that didn't change with new 52. New 52 just established what the
new big seven were versus what the previous big seven use to be. And there hasn't been any rumors or content stating Cyborg's founding status was being removed.

Compared to the roster that came before them it was definitely "back-to-basics," and the new Big Seven were pretty much the same aside from Cyborg taking Martian Manhunter's spot.

There haven't been any rumors, but with the extended timeline and the possibility of restoring Cyborg's Titans history, it seems like it has a high potential for happening. Cyborg's founding status is, at this point, the least relevant that it's ever been.

Right, Golden Age Superman was based around t-shirt and jeans, he also didn't have a relationship
with Lois Lane, and his main relationship was with wonder woman. Gotcha. Were there some elements from Golden Age Superman? Of course, just like there were some elements of Static from Milestone in his book, that still didn't change the fact that a lot change for him under New 52.

Compared to Post-Crisis, yeah, but for the most part it was a return to a more Golden Age-esque Superman initially before he became the standard version, and the for the most part the most noteworthy change was the Wonder Woman relationship.

That doesn't matter to the point I made.

But it was relevant to the point I was trying to make about the New 52.

Keep telling yourself that, we'll agree to disagree.

Even the points you illustrate to me for the New 52 indicate that they weren't that different.

[kurenai24]

Really? I'm genuinely surprised but i doubt his character is particularly heroic and, regardless, what rationale could they possibly have to make him Flash? i remain doubtful that one will be true, like when the where there was that leak that Wally would join the suicide squad after commiting manslaughter in HiC.

Was that one part of the list where BC had like 10 to 15 things they said were gonna happen and all of then did except 2. If it was I would say that's pretty good odds and you shouldn't really use that as proof that the Owen rumor is false but the rumor does more out there than the other suggestions so I understand.

I just doubt DC will replace more than 2 of their big 6 with black characters. Luke is virtually a lock. Whether it's Owen or Kaldur or whomever, I bet one replacement will have the villain-for-parent trope.

That's what I've been taking into consideration.

I'm looking at these 5G characters as a Justice League team and not individually b/c aesthetic is key. And I'm also looking at it as if the only books that are gonna come out of this 5G thing are the main 6 and a Justice League book.

It's why I can easily shoot down that speculative talk about Naomi being 5G Wonder Woman b/c on a team with a black batman, possibly a black green lantern, and possibly a black aquaman, you think DC is gonna make the majority or half the team black by also making 5G Wonder Woman Naomi...

It's why I can say that there's probably a small chance (30 to 40 percent) that the new Wonder Woman may be a woc b/c they may want the trio to be of different race/ethnicity like the new Legion trio; which is why I can stand behind my speculation and advocacy for Grace Choi and Viking Judge even if I think the 5G Wonder Woman is still gonna be a white woman.

It's also why I'm now pulling back from the idea that Jackson is the 5G Aquaman, not only b/c a repurposed earth one story wouldn't be needed for the character in 5G, but why go for another black male character when you can have a black female character in Jo who is also lgbt; and even if Keli is picked over Jo for the 5G green lantern role, would DC have 2 characters whose parents were villains on a team together or as individual leads of a book.

When you really break it down you can start eliminating things.

[HunterX]

Woah, where are we getting 10 years from, these are suppose to be young heroes taking over old mantles, not heroes who look the same age as the heroes we have now; a 10 year time-skip would put Jon at almost 30 and have Luke in his 30's.

just speculation, just estimating. Heard there was going to be a time skip, so I thought maybe 10 years or 20years. Well stranger things have happened LOL.

But you might have a point, so how big/small a time gap are we talking here, a couple of months?, a few years?. I havent heard anything definite on that

I just doubt DC will replace more than 2 of their big 6 with black characters. Luke is virtually a lock.Whether it's Owen or Kaldur or whomever, I bet one replacement will have the villain-for-parent trope.

Why not, why make Luke a token, didnt realise there was a quota

[SecretWarrior]

That's what I've been taking into consideration.

I'm looking at these 5G characters as a Justice League team and not individually b/c aesthetic is key. And I'm also looking at it as if the only books that are gonna come out of this 5G thing are the main 6 and a Justice League book.

It's why I can easily shoot down that speculative talk about Naomi being 5G Wonder Woman b/c on a team with a black batman, possibly a black green lantern, and possibly a black aquaman, you think DC is gonna make the majority or half the team black by also making 5G Wonder Woman Naomi...

It's why I can say that there's probably a small chance (30 to 40 percent) that the new Wonder Woman may be a woc b/c they may want the trio to be of different race/ethnicity like the new Legion trio.

It's why I can stand behind my speculation and advocacy for Grace Choi and Viking Judge even if I think the 5G Wonder Woman is still gonna be a white woman.

It's also why I'm now pulling back from the idea that Jackson is the 5G Aquaman, not only b/c a repurposed earth one story wouldn't be needed for the character in 5G, but why go for another black male character when you can have a black female character in Jo who is also lgbt; and even if Keli is picked over Jo for the 5G green lantern role, would DC have 2 characters whose parents were villains on a team together or as individual leads of a book.

When you really break it down you can start eliminating things.

I see it similarly. I definitely think Aquaman will have some kind of pacific background when you tally up the various factors you mentioned. Never heard of Viking Judge. Sounds like Thor and Ghost Rider, but changing the mythology could be cool. Grace Choi would be a good choice, but a pre-New 52 history could age her up too much to be a part of 5G. Their Trinity branding will definitely have an effect on who their Wonder Woman will be.

Raises the question of what happens to characters like Kaldur and Wallace... The aesthetic point is real-- Some of the most "deserving" or obvious young characters are black sidekicks. Besides the surprise of it all, the push for less obvious choices could be so that the varsity roster isn't too white or too black or too fleshed out to not do something new with.

How do you sideline the current sidekicks and former apprentices without insulting their characters? That'll be interesting to see.

I wonder if Luke was chosen in part because of the popularity of Black Panther... The success of Mamoa-man might similarly influence Aquaman.

[HunterX]

Partially yes. but it's also that New 52 selling better than rebirth contrast with the classic fan mentality of the drastic changes being the fall of New 52. For example, notice how you were quick to cite that New 52 changes were not suitable in the long run, but refuse to accept the status quo is even less suitable when indicated that New 52 sales better.

Well just the law of diminishing returns, new 52 reboot did come first hence the better sales, then Rebirth came after. Some Classis/"old" fans who left due to new 52 "betrayal", likely never returned even with rebirth. And with Rebirth event, they likely lost new fans who joined during new 52 and didnt want things to change. So in the end with both reboots, DC ended up angering some new fans and "old" fans. So of course Rebirth was never going to see such huge sales, it was like a sequel reboot of new52 and a damage control one too. It was successful for what it was, new52 while successful too, is the creator of all this mess that followed.

How about DC figure out a way to reboot/relaunch their comics without alienating their long time loyal fans, they could find another way to attract new fans. Then its a win win for everybody, and a win for them. The way they did it with new 52 is the problem in the first place. Whats done is done now so going forward, they shouldnt alienate new 52 fans either, by undoing everything, some new 52 changes were good for certain characters.

They could continue doing their relaunches, finding and making new fans, without losing the fans they already have. Just maybe they have figured a way to do that with 5G, just maybe.

[SecretWarrior]

Why not, why make Luke a token, didnt realise there was a quota

I just doubt DC will do it. They'd get flack from white fans and Fox news for going that black. Just look up McDuffie's interviews about his Justice League with 4 black characters on a roster of like 15. They'd be roasted as being too woke. They'd also get flack from Asian and Latino fans for being sidelined (again) by only thinking of diversity as black characters.

[SecretWarrior]

Speaking of Luke-- I wonder if he'll go through some tragedy to make him a grimmer character. Personality-wise, he needs to be different enough from Bruce to make a Batman-Beyond-dynamic work, which would align with his existing lighter personality. But he also needs to be different enough from Jon to make a World's-Finest-dynamic work, which would favor a darker personality. Maybe DC will have him be a badboy like Terry when Terry was with the League but make him less guarded when he's with Bruce.

I'm also curious about whether the reason Bruce preferred Luke to David is the same reason he chose Luke over the Robins.

[Frostbite883]

I just doubt DC will do it. They'd get flack from white fans and Fox news for going that black.

Bit of irony there for Luke given his last name is the same as a certain news channel's.

[HunterX]

I just doubt DC will do it. They'd get flack from white fans and Fox news for going that black.Just look up McDuffie's interviews about his Justice League with 4 black characters on a roster of like 15.

Well things have changed a lot in recent years, people are used to seeing more than one black character in a roaster across media. And two black characters is not that many. While they may be some backlash from a few, DC might still be willing to do it as the world has changed.

They'd be roasted as being too woke. They'd also get flack from Asian and Latino fans for being sidelined (again) by only thinking of diversity as black characters.

Well of course they shouldnt forget other races. Wouldnt surprise me if this new rooster is a rainbow League.

Bit of irony there for Luke given his last name is the same as a certain news channel's.

LOL

[Frostbite883]

Well things have changed a lot in recent years people are used to seeing more than one black character in a roaster across media. And two black characters is not that many.

Well of course they shouldnt forget other races.

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[Frontier]

Speaking of Luke-- I wonder if he'll go through some tragedy to make him a grimmer character. Personality-wise, he needs to be different enough from Bruce to make a Batman-Beyond-dynamic work, which would align with his existing lighter personality. But he also needs to be different enough from Jon to make a World's-Finest-dynamic work, which would favor a darker personality. Maybe DC will have him be a badboy like Terry when Terry was with the League but make him less guarded when he's with Bruce.

I'm also curious about whether the reason Bruce preferred Luke to David is the same reason he chose Luke over the Robins.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lucius is dead.