DC 5G: the Replacements

[Godlike13]

Didn’t Marvel fire it’s EiC after ANAD.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Pardon me for jumping into the conversation here.

I don't think time will be any different, if DC just does the same thing it's done in the past. The problem they run into is the direct market. Fans who go to the LCS are typically long-term fans who follow the same characters they've followed for decades and they're not very likely to grab onto and support new characters, and will flat-out reject new characters in old mantles. We've known this for decades.

So it doesn't matter how great the books are. The established fanbase isn't going to change their buying habits and the direct market doesn't have the reach to find new audiences.

It's all about distribution, and this is what DC keeps missing. It won't matter if these new legacies or new directions or whatever are the most brilliant, amazing things the company has ever done; old bastard fans like us won't read it. If DC wants this sort of thing to work, they need to get beyond Diamond.

Look at Ms. Marvel, Moon Girl, and Squirrel Girl. Their books don't sell very well in the direct market. But they do great in digital and on Scholastic (and trade, and other distribution models). Marvel, quite by accident it seems, stumbled into distributors where those new characters (okay, SG isn't new, but you get my meaning) can flourish. But as far as the LCS goes? Those books don't really move that much.

DC needs to do the same. The entire industry has to escape from the direct market and find new ways to get their product out to new audiences. Because new readers aren't coming to the LCS no matter how good the product is. That avenue is dead, except for those of us already there (and the rare newbie) and we're not enough.

As for replacing the Trinity, that's just idiotic. Nobody wants race-bent Supermen, Batmen, and Wonder Women, because that's not representation it's black face. No one wants replacements at all because it's not just the costumes and mantles that draw fans in to those major IP's, it's the characters themselves. Superman isn't Superman when he's not Clark Kent, mild mannered reporter. If DC makes these new replacements the only versions of the Trinity out there, it'll fail hard. It might work as books set in the near future, while other titles continue the modern day adventures of the "real" Trinity (akin to Batman Beyond managing to stay afloat) but replacing Clark, Bruce, and Diana is like replacing the faces on Mount Rushmore; it's basically a crime against humanity.

Exactly.

Is the Direct Market what is killing the sales, is no wonder that the Walmart 100 page Giants are doing so well. They're easily accessible, cheap options for anyone to pick in a whim. Even if only 3 out of ten that pick them continues getting the newest issues, there's a massive amount of potential buyers out there that will make up for that. Now if they want the extra mile and get back those old fans who have dropped over the years, they simply need to improve the quality of their creative teams, because is obvious that whatever King, Snyder, and Bendis are doing, isn't working that well.

So will 5g give DC the boost that ANAD gave to Marvel? Definitely. Will it be enough to save the market? Nope, because the problem isn't solely tied DC's lack of diversity advancement, but it is a key issue that seems like DC is trying to fix with 5g.

What boost? I'm seeing Marvel doing better numbers now under Cebulski than during Alonso. I mean, freaking Hulk and Venom are top sellers! Who in its right mind would've thought that would happen five years go?

[Rise]

It's amazing how people forget that Marvel overship their books, use dozens variants and have unbelievable high prices for their books.

Marvel isn't doing better, they are pretending by flooding the industry to give the impression that they are doing fine.

[Vakanai]

So, has this been officially confirmed yet? Any new news?

[Vordan]

I'm saying that new audiences is needed for the market to survive, I never stated that new audiences have saved the comic book market. If we had enough new audiences, again, 5g wouldn't be necessary. I specifically reference this point earlier in a previous post.



So will 5g give DC the boost that ANAD gave to Marvel? Definitely. Will it be enough to save the market? Nope, because the problem isn't solely tied DC's lack of diversity advancement, but it is a key issue that seems like DC is trying to fix with 5g.

You’re overestimating ANAD’s success. Now some books were huge successes. Jane Thor outsold her predecessor for quite a while for example. But others did not do that well. Chulk did not do anywhere near as well as Immortal Hulk is doing now. So the question is how well are some of those hypothetical successors going to perform. I think Luke Fox Batman will do quite well off the novelty of a Black Batman, that’s just my guess. But I can’t see Teen Lantern replacing Hal N Pals as being anything but a flop for example. So I think it’s premature to declare this will be a resounding success, especially given that the ANAD sales weren’t that great line wide.

And this is talking about replacing everyone which not even ANAD did. Iron Man was still Tony Stark and Peter was Spidey for example. So this is a much bigger gamble imo. It’s going to rely a lot on the strength of the creative teams.

[MadFacedKid]

Superman: Is either depowered or Lois somehow got his physiology. Akin to Strange/Thor. Hell why not both he’s depowered and Lois got the majority of his abilities.

Wonder Woman: I’d imagine she’d be left alone for the most part. Maybe a power up of some sort

Batman: Maybe and all new robin like Duke Thomas or something. Hell time displace him and put him in Batman Beyond’s timeline where he finds a new Robin.

Flash: Barry somehow gets crippled and something is preventing the speed force from helping him incomes Wally II or Godspeed

Green Lantern l: Put Simon and Jessica back up front

Aquaman: Merc is centered ruling monarch or he gets some power up of some sort

Hell DC already did All New All Different it just didn’t last as long. Superman was depowered kinda like Thor. Batman was Jim Gordon similar time Ironman switching, Wonder Woman got a new outfit with weapons, Aquaman and Green Lantern got power ups All Different at the very least.

[Ascended]

It's amazing how people forget that Marvel overship their books, use dozens variants and have unbelievable high prices for their books.

Marvel isn't doing better, they are pretending by flooding the industry to give the impression that they are doing fine.

Yeah, Marvel is very good at providing "empty calories" that give the appearance of health. It doesn't hurt that the MCU is doing so well either. Even though movie success means nothing for comic sales, it does put the *idea* of success in people's minds. And honestly, we're just accustomed to Marvel out-performing DC; it's been like that since the 60's or so (with DC pulling ahead once in a while, sometimes even managing it for months on end, like at the start of the New52). I think most of us are just under the basic assumption that whatever DC is doing, Marvel's doing it better.

But Marvel does indeed use a lot of tricks to make their sales figures look better than they are. DC does too, but Marvel is either much better at it, uses them more, or both.

I mean, I've been around the block a few times. I'll see what this new gimmick is, and if any of it looks like a good story I'll give it an issue or two. I don't get too worked up about comics anymore; whatever stupidity DC tries, we all know they'll return to normal before long. But these gimmicks aren't going to save the industry and I am beyond tired of seeing short-sighted, short-term shock value changes instead of real, lasting effort to improve things. I sorta feel sorry for DC; they're trapped between old fans who don't like change and a distribution model that is choking the life out of them and preventing them from finding new audiences. The company (and industry) did this to themselves so my sympathy is limited, but still, it's gotta be frustrating as hell when your own customer base won't let you do the things you have to in order to survive.

[skyvolt2000]

It's amazing how people forget that Marvel overship their books, use dozens variants and have unbelievable high prices for their books.
Marvel isn't doing better, they are pretending by flooding the industry to give the impression that they are doing fine.

Oh Marvel is NOT the only one. Look up Vampire Tramp. A book that on average has 6-7 variants a MONTH. It's numbers are BELOW Moon Girl.

To you and me all those variants that we saw with Fantastic Four was DISGUSTING. However they did that because they KNOW comic book stores are going to ORDER them. Some will charge higher prices for them. I know one store that orders them because they SELL OUT. No matter WHO is on that cover-if it's a first issue-they have 100% sales.

Dynamite admitted YEARS ago that variants got them better sales on books.

Oh what about second and beyond prints? LOGIC says if a store has SOLD every single copy-you do a second one. We are not seeing that. I have been to stores where all 7 printings are on the shelf. LOOKING at you Star Wars. All at cover price.

Everybody is doing what the PUBLIC allows. That is what everyone keeps forgetting. Folks want to stop this stuff have to STOP buying it. Variants, events and so on.

Is the Direct Market what is killing the sales, is no wonder that the Walmart 100 page Giants are doing so well. They're easily accessible, cheap options for anyone to pick in a whim. Even if only 3 out of ten that pick them continues getting the newest issues, there's a massive amount of potential buyers out there that will make up for that.

If you can FIND them. I have yet to see a Wal-Mart with them. I have seen them in dollar bins at Half Price books.

If this new audience were the panacea you guys are touting, then Marvel would continue with the same editorial line than Alonso pushed but that one has only caused diminishing returns at best.

Alonso like Dan does NOT control what a store orders. If stores don't want books with POC as the leads on the shelf like so many told Bleeding Cool in so "obvious" tones-Alonso can't help that. That is why so many books did better OUTSIDE of the comic book store.

That is a bad look on Joe Q and his bosses. They chose to listen to trolls who took issue with WHO is on the cover. If you keep judging based on who is on the cover-That says story quality mean NOTHING. That is how you get Heroes in Crisis. If that was Static killing folks and chased by Ted Kord & Detective Chimp that would be the WORST selling book DC ever had.

As for replacing the Trinity, that's just idiotic. Nobody wants race-bent Supermen, Batmen, and Wonder Women, because that's not representation it's black face.

Yet that seems to be the only way to get a writer to do something with a POC.

I rather see volume 3-10 of Cyborg or Duke Thomas than black face Trinity. That does not work long term. Excluding Miles-the most successful black guys have been original creations. Spawn, Static, Cage, Blade & Panther.

[leo619]

What boost? I'm seeing Marvel doing better numbers now under Cebulski than during Alonso. I mean, freaking Hulk and Venom are top sellers! Who in its right mind would've thought that would happen five years go?

ANAD was the boost that contributed to Fresh Start, as ANAD helped starting the rise in sales before Fresh Start merged the success of ANAD while bringing back the classic characters. That was one of the major points for ANAD.

[leo619]

You’re overestimating ANAD’s success. Now some books were huge successes. Jane Thor outsold her predecessor for quite a while for example. But others did not do that well. Chulk did not do anywhere near as well as Immortal Hulk is doing now. So the question is how well are some of those hypothetical successors going to perform. I think Luke Fox Batman will do quite well off the novelty of a Black Batman, that’s just my guess. But I can’t see Teen Lantern replacing Hal N Pals as being anything but a flop for example. So I think it’s premature to declare this will be a resounding success, especially given that the ANAD sales weren’t that great line wide.

And this is talking about replacing everyone which not even ANAD did. Iron Man was still Tony Stark and Peter was Spidey for example. So this is a much bigger gamble imo. It’s going to rely a lot on the strength of the creative teams.

No one stated that the entire line was a complete success, but ANAD overall was definitely successful. No one was saying all the books were grand successes, nor did anyone say these books sold better than their classic counterparts (even though strangely some did.). The success of ANAD was to introduce new characters to new fans that were previously alienated from the comic book market, and on that point they definitely succeed. Even Sales wise, the line itself did very good for a good amount of time. It's direct competition came in when DC did Rebirth, but that's normally how things go. A company does a huge initiative and starts increasing market share for a while until either hype dies down our their competitor performs an initiative. Now Marvel is spanking the pants off of Rebirth with Fresh Start, which focused more on combining their new from ANAD with their classic, while Rebirth just attempted to wipe away most of their new.

Secondly, almost everyone was replaced. Iron Man was replaced by Riri and Doctor Doom for example, Logan was replaced by Laura, Bruce by Cho, etc etc. To be honest, the only one that actually remain was probably Peter lol.

[dornwolf]

Didn’t Marvel fire it’s EiC after ANAD.

If I remember right shortly after it wrapped there was all of a sudden a big push to get back to "meat and potatoes"

[Frontier]

No one stated that the entire line was a complete success, but ANAD overall was definitely successful. No one was saying all the books were grand successes, nor did anyone say these books sold better than their classic counterparts (even though strangely some did.). The success of ANAD was to introduce new characters to new fans that were previously alienated from the comic book market, and on that point they definitely succeed. Even Sales wise, the line itself did very good for a good amount of time. It's direct competition came in when DC did Rebirth, but that's normally how things go. A company does a huge initiative and starts increasing market share for a while until either hype dies down our their competitor performs an initiative. Now Marvel is spanking the pants off of Rebirth with Fresh Start, which focused more on combining their new from ANAD with their classic, while Rebirth just attempted to wipe away most of their new.

Wasn't Fresh Start mostly about bringing back the classic heroes?

I mean, Falcon's solo book was over by then...and most of the mantle reversals had already happened. Did Riri's solo/mini come out then? I forget.

Secondly, almost everyone was replaced. Iron Man was replaced by Riri and Doctor Doom for example, Logan was replaced by Laura, Bruce by Cho, etc etc. To be honest, the only one that actually remain was probably Peter lol.

Riri/Doom was kind of post-ANAD, if only because Marvel was promoting a new take on Marvel Now by then.

Peter had just come off a replacement story before ANAD so there really wasn't a need for it so soon. Besides Miles had already run concurrently in his own universe so there might've felt less of a need to make him the sole Spider-Man.

[leo619]

Wasn't Fresh Start mostly about bringing back the classic heroes?

I mean, Falcon's solo book was over by then...and most of the mantle reversals had already happened. Did Riri's solo/mini come out then? I forget.

It wasn't solely about bringing back the classic heroes, otherwise we wouldn't have the legacy books that we have today. Again, Marvel knew what they were doing. They allowed these characters that didn't have much of a chance before ANAD to have one of the best attempts to find an audience, and they succeeded on many occasions. But as we all expected, the classic heroes was going to return, and Marvel took this opportunity to try and find a way to merge the two. And now we have the full success of Fresh Start, still reaping the benefits of ANAD while compounding the interest of bringing back the classic characters. This is what DC wants to replicate.

Riri/Doom was kind of post-ANAD, if only because Marvel was promoting a new take on Marvel Now by then.

I wouldn't call it Post-ANAD, just because there wasn't an era post-ANAD before Fresh Start like DCYou was before Rebirth. It wasn't at the beginning of ANAD, that's true, but it still was at it's core.

[Vordan]

No one stated that the entire line was a complete success, but ANAD overall was definitely successful. No one was saying all the books were grand successes, nor did anyone say these books sold better than their classic counterparts (even though strangely some did.). The success of ANAD was to introduce new characters to new fans that were previously alienated from the comic book market, and on that point they definitely succeed. Even Sales wise, the line itself did very good for a good amount of time. It's direct competition came in when DC did Rebirth, but that's normally how things go. A company does a huge initiative and starts increasing market share for a while until either hype dies down our their competitor performs an initiative. Now Marvel is spanking the pants off of Rebirth with Fresh Start, which focused more on combining their new from ANAD with their classic, while Rebirth just attempted to wipe away most of their new.

Secondly, almost everyone was replaced. Iron Man was replaced by Riri and Doctor Doom for example, Logan was replaced by Laura, Bruce by Cho, etc etc. To be honest, the only one that actually remain was probably Peter lol.

Hmmm I’m not sure if ANAD was actually successful. If it had been a success why did Alonso get kicked out? There were successes certainly, but overall the initiative seemed to have failed which is how Cebulski became EiC and started his reign with a “back to basics” approach that saw a lot of the legacies sidelined.

[Ascended]

Hmmm I’m not sure if ANAD was actually successful. If it had been a success why did Alonso get kicked out? There were successes certainly, but overall the initiative seemed to have failed which is how Cebulski became EiC and started his reign with a “back to basics” approach that saw a lot of the legacies sidelined.

It's hard to measure, because there are so many tricks Marvel uses to make their sales seem higher than they truly are (which has already been discussed).

It *could* be that no one expected ANAD to last; at the time Marvel was doing those relaunches every 18 months or so and I'd believe they knew these were all short-term gains that they'd have to replace with a new banner gimmick. Or it *could* be that ANAD (and perhaps the other initiatives before it) were all meant to last and the sales just weren't there, forcing new roll outs to keep the hype going.

So perhaps it wasn't the failure of any specific banner that got Alonso out, but rather his inability to correct the continuing decline of the company/industry and his reliance on short term boosts and not long-term growth. Or maybe it was indeed ANAD that was the final straw. Or maybe it had nothing to do with any of that and Alonso left for unrelated reasons. We'll probably never know.