DC 5G: the Replacements

[leo619]

Yeah, Jane Foster is now the be-all, end-all of legacy heroes .

Your issues with her doesn't change the fact that she was one of the top three biggest success stories to come from out of that era, to the point to where she sold more than her original mantle counterpart and captain marvel. So it's clearly obviour Jane resonated quite well with her audience which can't be said the same for Captain America.

Again, the way Marvel set up the ANAD legacy heroes versus their originals did not seem to leave much room for a shared mantle situation. Like the aforementioned Jane Foster, there really wasn't much room for the original Thor with how they approached her and I don't see how that dynamic would have worked without compromising Thor's character any more then they did.

I guess they could do like they do with Peter and Miles where they keep them as separate from each other as possible to the point where it doesn't matter that someone else is using the codename, moreso from Peter's standpoint then Miles since it gets mentioned so much in Miles' book that there's another Spider-Man. The closer Peter and Miles are the less the dynamic seems to work, at least without seriously altering either character.

Wish more of those people who had supported them from the beginning had shown up for their subsequent new series.

And Again, I disagree, there was more then another leeway to allow them to share the same mantle and each story had it's own elements on how they could keep the mantle. The only one that would have been difficult would have been Thor due to her powers being tied to mjornir, but that could have been solved easily by an alternate reality mjornir entering their universe. As such, sharing the mantle was not a problem storywise. The problem would have been classic fans not wanting two heroes to share the same name, and that's something you can't do little about.

[leo619]

How exactly is making a gamble for an audience that is clearly not interested in committing long term while alienating the audience that has kept them afloat for literal decades will help them to survive? I mean, unless the new wave of books is pricier, I don't see the advantage of that.

Because the audience that kept them float is no longer enough to keep them afloat. DC wouldn't be trying these methods if they didn't see their demise on the wall if they didn't bring in new blood. Classic fans are no longer enough to keep them sustainable, and that's the hard truth many need to realize and understand.

[Celgress]

Because the audience that kept them float is no longer enough to keep them afloat. DC wouldn't be trying these methods if they didn't see their demise on the wall if they didn't bring in new blood. Classic fans are no longer enough to keep them sustainable, and that's the hard truth many need to realize and understand.

A salient point.

DC does have a diversity problem with its characters. Heck take the Trinty for example, Clark, Bruce, and Diana all have such similar physical appearances (black hair, blue eyes, and pale skin) they could easily be mistaken for siblings.

[Tzigone]

Because the audience that kept them float is no longer enough to keep them afloat. DC wouldn't be trying these methods if they didn't see their demise on the wall if they didn't bring in new blood. Classic fans are no longer enough to keep them sustainable, and that's the hard truth many need to realize and understand.

I realize it. I just don't care much. If DC survives, but doesn't do the characters I like anymore and especially doesn't try for a developed and semi-consistent continuity (which is how I get attached to new characters), then I'm not reading them. If I'm not reading them, why do I care they exist/are successful? So, I will say that I don't necessarily think this is stupid of DC (execution matters a lot), but if it's successful, really successful, long-term, my comics have died anyway, so it doesn't matter to me.

I know a lot of people don't care about continuity - I'm not one of them. For about 15 years I specifically read Marvel over DC because they didn't reboot universes, despite their own retconning. Quit reading Marvel when they did. Started with back catalog in DC of already-defunct universe on purpose because it was closed, but still got pulled in (so I guess it could happen again). Sadly, there are post-COIE changes from pre-COIE or late retcons within post-COIE don't like. I just care too much about continuity to not get frustrated when reading long-running, multi-author works, I think. I end up pulling certain runs and they are my headcanon and ignore the rest, which is terribly unfair, I know. If I'm reading back issues and the changes happened in the past, I just skip those or pick whichever past version I like best. When reading real-time, it's much more irritating. And I read for heroes, not the medium, so superheroes being left by the wayside isn't great for me, either. But frankly, so many (not all) heroes have been so unheroic as of late, I'm not sure it matters.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Because the audience that kept them float is no longer enough to keep them afloat. DC wouldn't be trying these methods if they didn't see their demise on the wall if they didn't bring in new blood. Classic fans are no longer enough to keep them sustainable, and that's the hard truth many need to realize and understand.

That doesn't address my question.

You guys keep talking about how these new audiences will save the market, raise the comic book sales through the roof and whatnot. But the hard data available shows that it is not the case. Despite all the heavy push, Marvel did for diversity and new characters over the last years, comic book sales as whole keep going in steady decline (while the manga sales raise seemingly non stop). And this despite all the stunts Marvel does to rig the data with its continuous relaunches, rebrandings, over shipping, limited covers, fake outrage in the media, etc. If anything, Cebulski strategy of dialing down things and keep the entire publishing focused has provided stable and slowly growing sales. And let's not forget that Marvel has the behemoth that is the MCU and Disney behind. If this new audience were the panacea you guys are touting, then Marvel would continue with the same editorial line than Alonso pushed but that one has only caused diminishing returns at best.

What makes you guys think this time will be different?

[Frontier]

Those are pretty much my theories for the Trinity based off what's happening now. I also think Aquaman will get married and maybe be king. No idea for Flash and Hal.

Barry and Wally trapped in the Speed Force?

You don't even need to replace Hal. Just have a new Lantern on 2814. There's, like, seven other GL's anyways.

As for Green Arrow... Idk. I don't see him being replaced of the basis that he isn't exactly important at the moment. I'm thinking this will mainly affect the people that are in this event right now.

I get that, but he's still one of DC's bigger IP's so I think the temptation is there.

And if they're replacing Wonder Woman and Aquaman, I don't think Shazam will be safe either. But I guess Johns still has creative control of that property.

Your issues with her doesn't change the fact that she was one of the top three biggest success stories to come from out of that era, to the point to where she sold more than her original mantle counterpart and captain marvel. So it's clearly obviour Jane resonated quite well with her audience which can't be said the same for Captain America.

That comment didn't involve any of my issues regarding Jane. In fact I was commenting on how she is basically the ideal of every legacy hero and that approach to her was probably why she was so successful.

I had some very big issues with that approach, but that wasn't what I was commenting on.

And Again, I disagree, there was more then another leeway to allow them to share the same mantle and each story had it's own elements on how they could keep the mantle. The only one that would have been difficult would have been Thor due to her powers being tied to mjornir, but that could have been solved easily by an alternate reality mjornir entering their universe. As such, sharing the mantle was not a problem storywise. The problem would have been classic fans not wanting two heroes to share the same name, and that's something you can't do little about.

Again, if you look at how the mantle successions were handled and how the successors were handled in relation to the originals, it didn't seem to leave a lot of room for there to be a shared mantle situation. This wasn't like with Spider-Man where there wasn't a replacement storyline involving Miles so 616 Peter could carry on like Miles didn't exist when Miles joined the 616 universe.

JaneThor's entire premise was based around being the only Thor and that she had basically supplanted OG!Thor, personality, name and all. Where do you go from there other then altering Thor himself to be less then he was before or not the person he was before so that he doesn't seem redundant with Jane?

I also don't think Marvel was seriously committed to publishing multiple titles with the same codename, which might have been why they stopped doing it.

I don't know if all legacy fans would have been as open to having the successors have to share the mantle either, to be honest.

Because the audience that kept them float is no longer enough to keep them afloat. DC wouldn't be trying these methods if they didn't see their demise on the wall if they didn't bring in new blood. Classic fans are no longer enough to keep them sustainable, and that's the hard truth many need to realize and understand.

Their main comic line isn't enough to be sustainable which is probably why they're banking on all these imprints.

[Rise]

You guys keep talking about how these new audiences will save the market, raise the comic book sales through the roof and whatnot.

Bringing new fans will definitely help in saving the market and bringing a new life into it if they actually succeeded in doing so.

I didn't say get rid of your loyal older fans (I personally don't understand brand loyalty, but oh well.. .), I'm simply saying don't let them drag you down and try to reach a new audience so you can survive. Dont forget that all of you were a new fans at some point too (I mean, you would have never got Red Hood if DC only cared about older fans considering how many of them wanted him to stay dead forever and never get out of their comfort zone by changing the status quo).

[H-E-D]

Because the audience that kept them float is no longer enough to keep them afloat. DC wouldn't be trying these methods if they didn't see their demise on the wall if they didn't bring in new blood. Classic fans are no longer enough to keep them sustainable, and that's the hard truth many need to realize and understand.

I think their bigger attempt to solve this problem is their OGN lines, which I think are brilliant and something Marvel genuinely should copy from them. I don't get why Marvel seems to feel like OGNs only when Jim Starlin wants to write one.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Bringing new fans will definitely help in saving the market and bringing a new life into it if they actually succeeded in doing so.

I didn't say get rid of your loyal older fans (I personally don't understand brand loyalty, but oh well.. .), I'm simply saying don't let them drag you down and try to reach a new audience so you can survive. Dont forget that all of you were a new fans at some point too (I mean, you would have never got Red Hood if DC only cared about older fans considering how many of them wanted him to stay dead forever).

We got Red Hood pretty much by accident, thanks to the old fans that found his reappearance in UtRH compelling. He was never supposed to become a breakout character, just a one time villain.

But since we're talking about him, let's use him as an example for this idea that a new audience will raise sales. Jason (much like Bucky) is a character pretty popular with people outside the regular comic book fanbase. Something that has translated in being highly requested for animated/film adaptations and videogames. Yet, this doesn't translate on bigger sales for his series. He does have a faithful, steady audience that has allowed his book to continue for nearly a decade (something Bucky can't brag of). But if you change the direction, that loyal audience will be alienated and drop the book, with no impact on those who want to see him in other projects besides the comic.

What we know of 5G, implies that DC is taking an all or nothing approach, massively replacing all of its big name characters with completely unknowns all just in the name of diversity. That is the point of contention if 5G were about those big name characters being replaced by their sidekicks, the reaction would be much more positive. I mean, a lot of people have been claiming for Dickbats and Wally to replace Bruce and Barry again for years.

I think their bigger attempt to solve this problem is their OGN lines, which I think are brilliant and something Marvel genuinely should copy from them. I don't get why Marvel seems to feel like OGNs only when Jim Starlin wants to write one.

I agree. OGN is the perfect way to reach a bigger, more diverse audience. They only need to work in making them more accessible, either by having lower price tags or selling them at newsstands at the like.

Ultimately I think that is the true bane of the industry, restricting the content to specialty shops, that by its own concept are able to turn off potential fans. I live in Mexico and here we can get our comics and manga at newsstands and departmental stores, and guess what, the industry is booming. We've never gotten as many different titles as we're doing now.

[Rise]

We got Red Hood because DC took a gamble and it end up working for them.

Red Hood has been leading a book since 2011 and we are close to 2020 now. If he was a completely failure in sales, DC wouldn't have kept his book and his thread is a big proof that a lot of his fans that kept him afloat are "new" fans (including you). Bucky didn't find success in comics because Marvel didn't bother to do something interesting with him and a lot of his MCU fans only care about shipping him with Steve or simply like him because of his actor. They aren't the audience one would try to win over because they don't care.

I mean, a lot of people have been claiming for Dickbats and Wally to replace Bruce and Barry again for years

Because majority of their fans are older fans who want more exposure for their favourites, not because they want change and are ok with it. This thread is the biggest example.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

We got Red Hood because DC took a gamble and it end up working for them.

Red Hood has been leading a book since 2011 and we are close to 2020 now. If he was a completely failure in sales, DC wouldn't have kept his book and his thread is a big proof that a lot of his fans that kept him afloat are "new" fans (including you). Bucky didn't find success in comics because Marvel didn't bother to do something interesting with him and a lot of his MCU fans only care about shipping him with Steve or simply like him because of his actor. They aren't the audience one would try to win over because they don't care.

How are you defining "new fans"? Because I've been following comic books since the '93, and what truly got me into the hobby was GL Rebirth. That said, I'm sure you read all the back and forth that went on one of the old Batman family sales threads, where many users were arguing that RH sales numbers were cancellation worthy and didn't understand how the book keeps going.

Because majority of their fans are older fans who want more exposure for their favourites, not because they want change and are ok with it. This thread is the biggest example.

That is still change.

[vasir12]

Barry and Wally trapped in the Speed Force?

You don't even need to replace Hal. Just have a new Lantern on 2814. There's, like, seven other GL's anyways.

I get that, but he's still one of DC's bigger IP's so I think the temptation is there.

And if they're replacing Wonder Woman and Aquaman, I don't think Shazam will be safe either. But I guess Johns still has creative control of that property.

That comment didn't involve any of my issues regarding Jane. In fact I was commenting on how she is basically the ideal of every legacy hero and that approach to her was probably why she was so successful.

I had some very big issues with that approach, but that wasn't what I was commenting on.

Again, if you look at how the mantle successions were handled and how the successors were handled in relation to the originals, it didn't seem to leave a lot of room for there to be a shared mantle situation. This wasn't like with Spider-Man where there wasn't a replacement storyline involving Miles so 616 Peter could carry on like Miles didn't exist when Miles joined the 616 universe.

JaneThor's entire premise was based around being the only Thor and that she had basically supplanted OG!Thor, personality, name and all. Where do you go from there other then altering Thor himself to be less then he was before or not the person he was before so that he doesn't seem redundant with Jane?

I also don't think Marvel was seriously committed to publishing multiple titles with the same codename, which might have been why they stopped doing it.

I don't know if all legacy fans would have been as open to having the successors have to share the mantle either, to be honest.

Their main comic line isn't enough to be sustainable which is probably why they're banking on all these imprints.

Or maybe Barry goes to the future.

I don't see Shazam being replaced cause he started so young... But then again the whole appeal is a kid turning into an adult with superpowers. How old is he in this new timeline, again?

As for the state of comics in general, no matter what Marvel and DC does in terms of content, I do think they'll still decline unless they change they way they do business. I won't say I know enough to give the "best" alternative but I do think there's such a rapid rise in manga
in the west for a reason.

So while I don't think bringing in fresh characters will save the industry I DO think comics have found themselves in a rut of wanting to evolve but not too much or readers (and some nostalgic writers) will respond negatively.

This isn't just in the case of diversity (though it's a major one) but also in the way stories are recycled over and over again. This is one of the reasons I think the new X-Men relaunch is going over so well. The other being the talent behind it. Though I already see more than a couple people annoyed with the changes.

That's just how it goes. Hickman was given the benefit of the doubt before the event because he earned it. The people at DC? Less so. No matter what change they proposed it was going to be an uphill battle.

The change they seem to want is two fold (it seems). Reestablish most of the history lost from flashpoint and COIE while also revitalizing the DC line with younger, fresher heroes in famous mantles (that can actually carry solos) and possibly add diversity to a universe mostly led by one kind of people.

Sounds cool but execution matters.

[leo619]

That doesn't address my question.

You guys keep talking about how these new audiences will save the market, raise the comic book sales through the roof and whatnot. But the hard data available shows that it is not the case. Despite all the heavy push, Marvel did for diversity and new characters over the last years, comic book sales as whole keep going in steady decline (while the manga sales raise seemingly non stop). And this despite all the stunts Marvel does to rig the data with its continuous relaunches, rebrandings, over shipping, limited covers, fake outrage in the media, etc. If anything, Cebulski strategy of dialing down things and keep the entire publishing focused has provided stable and slowly growing sales. And let's not forget that Marvel has the behemoth that is the MCU and Disney behind. If this new audience were the panacea you guys are touting, then Marvel would continue with the same editorial line than Alonso pushed but that one has only caused diminishing returns at best.

What makes you guys think this time will be different?

I'm saying that new audiences is needed for the market to survive, I never stated that new audiences have saved the comic book market. If we had enough new audiences, again, 5g wouldn't be necessary. I specifically reference this point earlier in a previous post.

Now does that mean 5g will, or has Fresh Start solved the entire problem of declining readership? Definitely not, because neither initiatives has fully fixed the problem of the comic book demographic.Over priced books, Digital Books costing as much as their print counterparts, The Comic Book Store Dilemma, and the big 2 still unwillingness to go as far as needed to attract the new audiences (like allowing the legacy characters to keep the mantles they kept in ANAD) But 5g, will be a step in the right direction.

So will 5g give DC the boost that ANAD gave to Marvel? Definitely. Will it be enough to save the market? Nope, because the problem isn't solely tied DC's lack of diversity advancement, but it is a key issue that seems like DC is trying to fix with 5g.

[Ascended]

That doesn't address my question.

What makes you guys think this time will be different?

Pardon me for jumping into the conversation here.

I don't think time will be any different, if DC just does the same thing it's done in the past. The problem they run into is the direct market. Fans who go to the LCS are typically long-term fans who follow the same characters they've followed for decades and they're not very likely to grab onto and support new characters, and will flat-out reject new characters in old mantles. We've known this for decades.

So it doesn't matter how great the books are. The established fanbase isn't going to change their buying habits and the direct market doesn't have the reach to find new audiences.

It's all about distribution, and this is what DC keeps missing. It won't matter if these new legacies or new directions or whatever are the most brilliant, amazing things the company has ever done; old bastard fans like us won't read it. If DC wants this sort of thing to work, they need to get beyond Diamond.

Look at Ms. Marvel, Moon Girl, and Squirrel Girl. Their books don't sell very well in the direct market. But they do great in digital and on Scholastic (and trade, and other distribution models). Marvel, quite by accident it seems, stumbled into distributors where those new characters (okay, SG isn't new, but you get my meaning) can flourish. But as far as the LCS goes? Those books don't really move that much.

DC needs to do the same. The entire industry has to escape from the direct market and find new ways to get their product out to new audiences. Because new readers aren't coming to the LCS no matter how good the product is. That avenue is dead, except for those of us already there (and the rare newbie) and we're not enough.

As for replacing the Trinity, that's just idiotic. Nobody wants race-bent Supermen, Batmen, and Wonder Women, because that's not representation it's black face. No one wants replacements at all because it's not just the costumes and mantles that draw fans in to those major IP's, it's the characters themselves. Superman isn't Superman when he's not Clark Kent, mild mannered reporter. If DC makes these new replacements the only versions of the Trinity out there, it'll fail hard. It might work as books set in the near future, while other titles continue the modern day adventures of the "real" Trinity (akin to Batman Beyond managing to stay afloat) but replacing Clark, Bruce, and Diana is like replacing the faces on Mount Rushmore; it's basically a crime against humanity.

[Rise]

How are you defining "new fans"? Because I've been following comic books since the '93, and what truly got me into the hobby was GL Rebirth. That said, I'm sure you read all the back and forth that went on one of the old Batman family sales threads, where many users were arguing that RH sales numbers were cancellation worthy and didn't understand how the book keeps going.

Considering that Red Hood is around 20k which quite normal for today industry when even Batman fell to 80k, I don't see why would anyone be surprised by this.

That is still change.

Since it was done before, it's not a change in the same way 5g is.

It might end up being a success, it might not. It's not like many are happy with the current mainline anyway and it could be an necessary freash air. Simply give it a chance before deciding it's worst thing ever.