DC 5G: the Replacements

[leo619]

Miles Morales is just carrying his success over from Ultimate Spiderman.

And what is your metric for a successful book starring a minority? Jaime Reyes' has had three long-running series, the N52 gave us Batwing and Static Shock. Batwoman also counts. Rebirth had New Superman and Sideways. And any book with Kyle technically counts.

My metric for a successful book starring a minority is a series that is running currently. DC has 0, Marvel has 4. Before ANAD, even Black Panther was canceled. That essentially tells you the state that diversity was in before ANAD took over, (and partially for DC before New52. Though Rebirth essentially reintroduced the same problems they had before New52 came into play.)

[leo619]

I don't know if Remender's take had an impact on sales or Spencer writing him as such an underdog.

We will have to agree to disagree there. One of the biggest criticism from Remender take was the inferiority complex placed on Falcon transitioning him into Captain America, as if he was a Rookie that just started superheroing. Spencer's take wasn't much better, though it did have the realistic story plots of having a black captain America inserted as a positive. But when you compare that to Mighty Thor, who was treated entirely like a triumphant heroine, it makes perfect sense why her series rose to stardom while Captain Falcon floundered.

To be honest, when you see what Marvel's approach were for the legacy characters versus the classic versions, they really didn't set it up in such a way where they could believably coexist together in a shared codename situation in my opinion.

Miles is one of the most noticeable exceptions but I think even he has issues with Marvel just not knowing what to do with him and Peter, especially in media adaptions.

Into the Spider-Verse was one of his strongest media outings and that went out of its way to present the idea that there couldn't be more then one Spider-Man per Earth and that each world only needs it's one, unique, Spider-Man which became Miles. So conceptually he should not be in the same setting as Peter.

Well again, we'll have to agree to disagree. There will just be some people who can't accept them sharing the mantle to begin with, like there can be only one. Unfortunately, there's no way to change those minds. But just like they did with Miles Morales, who currently has no problem being spider man even with peter parker sharing the same universe, the same method could've been applied for remaining legacy characters. If some people would refuse to accept their naming mantle, that's their problem. But mostly that would be because the characters weren't meant for them to begin with. They're meant for the folks who supported them from the beginning.

[Frontier]

We will have to agree to disagree there. One of the biggest criticism from Remender take was the inferiority complex placed on Falcon transitioning him into Captain America, as if he was a Rookie that just started superheroing. Spencer's take wasn't much better, though it did have the realistic story plots of having a black captain America inserted as a positive. But when you compare that to Mighty Thor, who was treated entirely like a triumphant heroine, it makes perfect sense why her series rose to stardom while Captain Falcon floundered.

Yeah, Jane Foster is now the be-all, end-all of legacy heroes .

Well again, we'll have to agree to disagree. There will just be some people who can't accept them sharing the mantle to begin with, like there can be only one. Unfortunately, there's no way to change those minds. But just like they did with Miles Morales, who currently has no problem being spider man even with peter parker sharing the same universe, the same method could've been applied for remaining legacy characters. If some people would refuse to accept their naming mantle, that's their problem. But mostly that would be because the characters weren't meant for them to begin with. They're meant for the folks who supported them from the beginning.

Again, the way Marvel set up the ANAD legacy heroes versus their originals did not seem to leave much room for a shared mantle situation. Like the aforementioned Jane Foster, there really wasn't much room for the original Thor with how they approached her and I don't see how that dynamic would have worked without compromising Thor's character any more then they did.

I guess they could do like they do with Peter and Miles where they keep them as separate from each other as possible to the point where it doesn't matter that someone else is using the codename, moreso from Peter's standpoint then Miles since it gets mentioned so much in Miles' book that there's another Spider-Man. The closer Peter and Miles are the less the dynamic seems to work, at least without seriously altering either character.

Wish more of those people who had supported them from the beginning had shown up for their subsequent new series.

[vasir12]

That's just the state of comics. It's extremely hard to break A-lister status that's been constant for decades. ANAD had an interesting idea and I still think it held mostly positive outcomes, but the main problem it had was that to make these replacements you put pretty much all the old heroes in disenfranchised/depressing positions. Thor was unworthy for "reasons," Tony was dead ect. It took them out of okay when I think that's a mistake.

There's no growth in losing your title but there is one in giving it away because you're doing something else. I really hope DC goes the latter route cause I rather Clark and Diana not be stuck in depression mode for years.

[Frontier]

The timeline re-establishes Connor Hawke exists, right? I wonder if they might be planning to replace Ollie with Connor again.

That's just the state of comics. It's extremely hard to break A-lister status that's been constant for decades. ANAD had an interesting idea and I still think it held mostly positive outcomes, but the main problem it had was that to make these replacements you put pretty much all the old heroes in disenfranchised/depressing positions. Thor was unworthy for "reasons," Tony was dead ect. It took them out of okay when I think that's a mistake.

Agreed.

There's no growth in losing your title but there is one in giving it away because you're doing something else. I really hope DC goes the latter route cause I rather Clark and Diana not be stuck in depression mode for years.

Clark might be United Planets President. Diana might be queen of Themyscira. Bruce seems set to become his Beyond self.

I don't think it will satisfy their fans for the most part but I figure DC won't go out of their way to give the main guard "bad ends."

[mace11]

My metric for a successful book starring a minority is a series that is running currently. DC has 0, Marvel has 4.

I think these are the current books that poc are the main leads.


Marvel
Agents of Atlas
Major X
Miles Morales Spider-Man
Magnificent Ms. Marvel
Black Panther
Champions
Aero
Ironheart
Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur
Sword Master
Star Wars Age of Resistance Poe Dameron
Shuri
Black panther and the agents of wakanda
Marvel Monsters (2019) #1 DIGITAL ISSUE/Kid Kaiju

The prodigal son was recent but it's not current now.


DC
Dial h for hero
Terrifics
House of whispers
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/House_of_Whispers_Vol_1_1

I wonder if these count to a point.
Marvel
Avengers -black panther leader now but still a team book.?
Strike force -a team book but blade is leader?
The runaways- team book but is alex the leader?

DC
Justice League Odyssey-jessica cruz?

Martian manhunter-in human form?
Batman and the outsiders- black lightning main lead/leader?





Note-
I don't the use word minority since some stories are not in the u.s, and some of the characters are not even citizens of the u.s.

[vasir12]

The timeline re-establishes Connor Hawke exists, right? I wonder if they might be planning to replace Ollie with Connor again.

Agreed.

Clark might be United Planets President. Diana might be queen of Themyscira. Bruce seems set to become his Beyond self.

I don't think it will satisfy their fans for the most part but I figure DC won't go out of their way to give the main guard "bad ends."

Those are pretty much my theories for the Trinity based off what's happening now. I also think Aquaman will get married and maybe be king. No idea for Flash and Hal.

Naturally people won't be 100% satisfied, but I do think people can get some level of appreciation for a positive "end" however temporary.

As for Green Arrow... Idk. I don't see him being replaced of the basis that he isn't exactly important at the moment. I'm thinking this will mainly affect the people that are in this event right now.

[Decoy]

DC hasn’t said anything yet about what 5G entails.

Maybe, with all the preemptive crap storm they’ll change their minds......

Let’s just hope DC doesn’t make 5G all SJW (Who am I kidding, Bendis is probably spearheading this whole debacle in the making)

[Korath]

Maybe, with all the preemptive crap storm they’ll change their minds......

Let’s just hope DC doesn’t make 5G all SJW (Who am I kidding, Bendis is probably spearheading this whole debacle in the making)

Well, they made the whole fucking Rebirth Nostalgian Wankfest for anti-SJW. It's about time DC started giving progressive sometjing to care about instead of inly catering to an aging and declinung fanbase.

[manwhohaseverything]

Well, they made the whole fucking Rebirth Nostalgian Wankfest for anti-SJW. It's about time DC started giving progressive sometjing to care about instead of inly catering to an aging and declinung fanbase.

It wasn't a nostalgia wankfest. If it was will be in preflashpoint world not this whatever it is. It was just acknowledging the past. The good, the bad, the ugly and the wacky. You are blaming rebirth for being a-political. They had diverse casts and protagonists. They just didn't play politics for either side. It was only necessary because New52 basically erased the past. Status quo of new52 was pathetic compared to any of the prior worlds.
I will accept progression if the past is acknowledged, and accepted in its place. Otherwise, no deal.if erasing the past generations is what this is going to do then, I won't view it as any kind of progression. That issue where clark was told to step aside for the legion was dreadful to read through . He is the original superboy. Should be treated as such. As for politics, i wouldn't mind as long as its entertaining and something deep.
Dc are the fools.they are going to keep making the same mistake over and over again.

“Fools who don’t respect the past are likely to repeat it.” – Nico Robin

[Rise]

Yes, they're headlining their usual books, while the new characters are headlining their own books and being successful there. That's the entire point. So yes, ANAD was successful. No one was expecting the new characters to remain headlining the classic names entirely. Everyone expected for it to return back to the status quo eventually. But what they were able to perform, is to allow the new characters that wouldn't have been given a chance before to be in their own books and ranging from semi-successful to fully successful books, (depending upon the character.)

So yes, it has worked in the long haul, and that's why DC is attempting to perform the same method that Marvel did. They see the success ANAD brought with Miles Morales, Mighty Thor, X-23, all the way down to scholastic deals with Moon Girl, and they're being left behind because of the current stronghold that's on their products. In the end, replacing a well known character with literal unknown, aka ANAD, was successful. Setting out New lines, aka DC's Dark Matter Universe, did not work. They specifically tried that method because they saw classic fan criticism given to ANAD, and thought producing a new line with characters would draw in the appeal they were looking for. They put their high end artist and high end writers on the books. What happened? It crashed and burn, one by one. That's when DC realize trying to listen to classic fan readership to appeal to new fan readership isn't going to work. Because what classic fans think should work primarily just focuses on what the classic fan wants while trying to give out a small olive branch to the newer readership

Gotta agree with the bolded.

People love criticising DC for everything, but they have been trying so hard to appeal to new fans without losing their core audience. It didn't work and if they want to survive, they really need to win over new fans more so than keeping the old fans.

I'm not really happy that they are replacing Bruce, but I'm not currently reading his main book anyway. Maybe I will end up liking Luke as Batman and I definitely prefer it over having Dick as Batman again because this is something new and daring at least.

[Jman27]

It wasn't a nostalgia wankfest. If it was will be in preflashpoint world not this whatever it is. It was just acknowledging the past. The good, the bad the ugly and the wacky. You are blaming rebirth for being a political. They had diverse casts and protagonists. They just didn't play politics for either side. It was only necessary because New52 basically erased the past. Status quo of new52 was pathetic compared to any of the prior worlds.
I will accept progression if the past is acknowledged, and accept its place. Otherwise, no deal.if erasing the past generations is what this is going to do then, I won't view it as any kind of progression. That issue where clark was told to step aside for the legion was dreadful to read through . He is the original superboy. Should be treated as such. As for politics, i wouldn't mind as long as its entertaining and something deep.
Dc are the fools.they are going to keep making the same mistake over and over again.

“Fools who don’t respect the past are likely to repeat it.” – Nico Robin

your quote is missing Best Girl

[Ascended]

Gotta agree with the bolded.

People love criticising DC for everything, but they have been trying so hard to appeal to new fans without losing their core audience. It didn't work and if they want to survive, they really need to win over new fans more so than keeping the old fans.

I'm not really happy that they are replacing Bruce, but I'm not currently reading his main book anyway. Maybe I will end up liking Luke as Batman and I definitely prefer it over having Dick as Batman again because this is something new and daring at least.

Agreed. DC has made plenty of mistakes over the years when it comes to topics like this, and the entire industry struggles to find new fans. But people talk like DC doesn't try *anything* to fix these problems when the truth is they do try. A lot. The New52 had a ton of books with PoC and female leads, and at least a couple LBGT titles, the New Age line was almost exclusively made up of original, diverse characters, they were publishing a female-only team a decade before people started really bitching about representation online.....but all the fans just keep buying Batman. No wonder Rebirth was white bread as hell! That's the only thing they can sell to their fans! When the "diversity" books are bad (like New52 Terrific and Static) I don't blame fans at all, and we shouldnt buy those books because it tells the company we'll support subpar quality. But when the books are good, like The Terrifics, Naomi, and Sideways? Those low sales figures aren't DC's fault, that's on us fans for not putting our money where our mouths are.

It's clear that DC's established fanbase isn't going to support viable "minority" titles, no matter how good those books are. I doubt its a case of bigotry so much as DC fans just read the established names they're familiar with. DC's fanbase seems a little more traditional and conservative than Marvel's, less willing to try new IP's. So DC's gotta figure out some way to make this happen, and since the old guard fans won't step up DC is gonna have to look elsewhere. When we get left behind, it'll be our own fault for not giving the quality minority books a chance.

[Ulysses]

New fans don't want Luke Fox or whatever name they don't know anything about. They know the classic archetypes from other media and they want more good stories about them.

I speak as a movie convert. When I saw Iron Man in theatres I wanted to get in on comics. I went to the comic shop and asked for Iron Man. There was a Tony Stark Iron man story just kicking off (Fraction, Larocca). If it had been someone other than Tony Stark, I'd have bailed. The classic archetypes are classic archetypes for a reason.

People from all walks of life want archetypal stories. Campbell, Jung, Eliade, Knowles and many others have pretty much proven this. No amount of Crisising, re-gendering, legacying and other such gimmicking is gonna suddenly change human nature.

People talk and talk about how to get new readers in and how new readers need jumping on points and it's tried over and over and it doesn't work. The se jumping on points serve just as well as jumping off points.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Gotta agree with the bolded.

People love criticising DC for everything, but they have been trying so hard to appeal to new fans without losing their core audience. It didn't work and if they want to survive, they really need to win over new fans more so than keeping the old fans.

I'm not really happy that they are replacing Bruce, but I'm not currently reading his main book anyway. Maybe I will end up liking Luke as Batman and I definitely prefer it over having Dick as Batman again because this is something new and daring at least.

How exactly is making a gamble for an audience that is clearly not interested in committing long term while alienating the audience that has kept them afloat for literal decades will help them to survive? I mean, unless the new wave of books is pricier, I don't see the advantage of that.