DC 5G: the Replacements

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

It's hard to measure, because there are so many tricks Marvel uses to make their sales seem higher than they truly are (which has already been discussed).

It *could* be that no one expected ANAD to last; at the time Marvel was doing those relaunches every 18 months or so and I'd believe they knew these were all short-term gains that they'd have to replace with a new banner gimmick. Or it *could* be that ANAD (and perhaps the other initiatives before it) were all meant to last and the sales just weren't there, forcing new roll outs to keep the hype going.

So perhaps it wasn't the failure of any specific banner that got Alonso out, but rather his inability to correct the continuing decline of the company/industry and his reliance on short term boosts and not long-term growth. Or maybe it was indeed ANAD that was the final straw. Or maybe it had nothing to do with any of that and Alonso left for unrelated reasons. We'll probably never know.

Whatever it was, the fact remains that Cebulski's approach of bringing back the classics while sidelining most of the ANAD legacies worked.

[vasir12]

Whatever it was, the fact remains that Cebulski's approach of bringing back the classics while sidelining most of the ANAD legacies worked.

Not really. Comic sales for everyone are still going down.

[Ascended]

If you can FIND them. I have yet to see a Wal-Mart with them. I have seen them in dollar bins at Half Price books.

Really? Every Wal-Mart in my area stocks them. I'm not sure how well they sell (they seem to do okay from what little attention I've given them), but they're at least stocked.

I've seen you complain about LCS owners showing bigotry in what they order too, and the way you talk about it makes it seem like it's an issue in your area. Dude, you must live in a crappy neighborhood to be having these problems! Move out here my way; we know how to treat our nerds!

I rather see volume 3-10 of Cyborg or Duke Thomas than black face Trinity. That does not work long term. Excluding Miles-the most successful black guys have been original creations. Spawn, Static, Cage, Blade & Panther.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I mean, I love President Superman and Nubia and other "alt" Trinity members, but race bending the OG's isn't doing anybody any favors and will only lead to bad PR. I think the best they could manage here is making Diana look more Mediterranean and making Clark look ethnically ambiguous. And in both cases they're still basically going to be white passing and the only real difference will be a slightly darker skin tone, which most people wouldn't even notice unless it was pointed out to them.

I think it's great that Mr. Terrific is finally getting some real attention and effort; his role in Metal was pretty large for a guy who isn't Big 7 and The Terrifics is a good book that's providing Holt with a real niche and role he can call his own. Great stuff happening there, even if it is a blatant FF riff (and he's getting some larger media attention too which is nice). And Naomi gives me a lot of hope too. And I really liked the idea of Duke being the "day time, superhuman" member of the Bat-clan (that was when he finally started to interest me). That gave him a unique role in Gotham that could really benefit him as a character as well as the wider Bat-verse. Hopefully they continue to push him. I gotta admit, as much as I love Black Lightning I haven't bothered with the new Outsiders; the delays and Duke's injury really just killed my interest in the title, but I hope the book is doing right by everyone and at least one or two of them manage to step up into solo titles from here.

Man, DC has so many amazing characters of color. They just need the editorial push to make them truly shine, and a distribution model that'll bring in readers who can appreciate something that isn't Batman.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Not really. Comic sales for everyone are still going down.

Sure, but we have Inmortal Hulk and freaking Venom of all the things in the top ten. That is a great sign for Cebulski. It is like back in '07 when Johns managed to turn Green Lantern into one of the biggest sellers for DC.

[leo619]

Hmmm I’m not sure if ANAD was actually successful. If it had been a success why did Alonso get kicked out? There were successes certainly, but overall the initiative seemed to have failed which is how Cebulski became EiC and started his reign with a “back to basics” approach that saw a lot of the legacies sidelined.

Alonso was kicked out due to the backlash associated with ANAD. I've already referenced how Fresh Start was a combination of returning the classic characters and merging the legacy characters, hence why almost all of the legacy characters that was sidelined has returned (and why they're currently at the strongest sales they've been since the beginning of Fresh Start) But that still doesn't change the fact that ANAD upset a lot of classic readers and a lot of comic book store owners. And we all know the power that comic book store owners have. There were plenty of articles about comic book stores yelling at marvel for their "forced diversity" attempts, even though sales of ANAD was relatively well. (It's one of the main reasons why I go all digital, but that's besides the point.) Combine that with the CEO of Marvel, who is pretty well known as a bigot to even a complete racist, and you have the situation of Alonso being replaced.

[Ulysses]

Combine that with the CEO of Marvel, who is pretty well known as a bigot to even a complete racist,

Citation needed.

[leo619]

Citation needed.

Here's the latest one, of Ike trying to prevent movies like Black Panther and Captain Marvel from being made to where almost Marvel lost Kevin Feige.

https://movieweb.com/marvel-studios-...ke-perlmutter/

When CBR discussed about Kevin Feige taking over Star Wars, they failed to mention Kevin Feige's problem with Ike and his restriction towards diverse products. To be honest, I recently found out about this information myself. But after discussing with some individuals, It seems like Ike has had a history. So when you think about how Ike was preventing blockbusters like Black Panther being made, it makes perfect since why he would remove the person responsible for ANAD, where he has a lot more control over the comic book portion versus the movie portion.

[Frontier]

It wasn't solely about bringing back the classic heroes, otherwise we wouldn't have the legacy books that we have today. Again, Marvel knew what they were doing. They allowed these characters that didn't have much of a chance before ANAD to have one of the best attempts to find an audience, and they succeeded on many occasions. But as we all expected, the classic heroes was going to return, and Marvel took this opportunity to try and find a way to merge the two. And now we have the full success of Fresh Start, still reaping the benefits of ANAD while compounding the interest of bringing back the classic characters. This is what DC wants to replicate.

Are we sure we're not talking about Marvel Legacy? Because that seemed to be more of the approach you're discussing then Fresh Start was.

Most of the main legacy books of Fresh Start ended fairly quickly while the more prominent classic books were brought to the forefront. There really wasn't much merging, at least compared to what was before.

I wouldn't call it Post-ANAD, just because there wasn't an era post-ANAD before Fresh Start like DCYou was before Rebirth. It wasn't at the beginning of ANAD, that's true, but it still was at it's core.

If we're talking as a publishing initiative, then ANAD really ended during Civil War II.

I guess if we're talking about it conceptually, the true end of it was the No Surrender mini-series.

[Vordan]

Alonso was kicked out due to the backlash associated with ANAD. I've already referenced how Fresh Start was a combination of returning the classic characters and merging the legacy characters, hence why almost all of the legacy characters that was sidelined has returned (and why they're currently at the strongest sales they've been since the beginning of Fresh Start) But that still doesn't change the fact that ANAD upset a lot of classic readers and a lot of comic book store owners. And we all know the power that comic book store owners have. There were plenty of articles about comic book stores yelling at marvel for their "forced diversity" attempts, even though sales of ANAD was relatively well. (It's one of the main reasons why I go all digital, but that's besides the point.) Combine that with the CEO of Marvel, who is pretty well known as a bigot to even a complete racist, and you have the situation of Alonso being replaced.

Ike is indeed a POS but he’s a greedy POS. I always saw him as someone who only cares about money more than anything else. And Marvel has shown themselves to be totally willing to ignore backlash in certain cases: The Inhumans, Captain Marvel, etc. So I don’t know, I can’t really buy that ANAD was this huge success, because Alonso could’ve easily pointed to the sales if they were that strong.

And the legacy hero sales haven’t been that great. Ms. Marvel under Ahmed is quality wise a huge step above Wilson’s last years on the title but her sales are weaker from what I recall. Ditto for Miles, the quality is leaps above Bendis’ meandering final arcs but the sales have just been ok. Ironheart under Eve Ewing has been phenomenal, totally rescued the character for me, but her solo got cancelled recently due to sales. Champions got cancelled too didn’t it? Hey if I’m wrong feel free to correct me but my impression is that it’s the main titles like ASM, Hulk, and now X-Men that have benefitted from this latest relaunch not the legacies.

[Ulysses]

Here's the latest one, of Ike trying to prevent movies like Black Panther and Captain Marvel from being made to where almost Marvel lost Kevin Feige.

https://movieweb.com/marvel-studios-...ke-perlmutter/

There is no evidence presented here that would incriminate anyone of being a "complete racist". Racism and bigotry are serious allegations to make. I'm sure you are not tossing that around casually and that you have good evidence for it. Maybe for now we can set aside the topic until we can look at strong evidence so as to avoid derailing the thread.

[leo619]

Are we sure we're not talking about Marvel Legacy? Because that seemed to be more of the approach you're discussing then Fresh Start was.

Most of the main legacy books of Fresh Start ended fairly quickly while the more prominent classic books were brought to the forefront. There really wasn't much merging, at least compared to what was before.

If we're talking as a publishing initiative, then ANAD really ended during Civil War II.

Was Marvel Legacy considered an initiative though? I presumed it was just a fancy banner to indicate how the Classic Heroes and Legacy Heroes was supposed to share the same world? And to be honest, Fresh Start was really when the classic heroes starting making their return. That's when Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America return to their mantle. If Marvel Legacy was considered a publishing initiative, then I'll change my stance to referring to both ANAD and Marvel Legacy. But I always presumed ANAD ran essentially from Secret Wars all the way to Fresh Start.

[leo619]

Ike is indeed a POS but he’s a greedy POS. I always saw him as someone who only cares about money more than anything else. And Marvel has shown themselves to be totally willing to ignore backlash in certain cases: The Inhumans, Captain Marvel, etc. So I don’t know, I can’t really buy that ANAD was this huge success, because Alonso could’ve easily pointed to the sales if they were that strong.

And the legacy hero sales haven’t been that great. Ms. Marvel under Ahmed is quality wise a huge step above Wilson’s last years on the title but her sales are weaker from what I recall. Ditto for Miles, the quality is leaps above Bendis’ meandering final arcs but the sales have just been ok. Ironheart under Eve Ewing has been phenomenal, totally rescued the character for me, but her solo got cancelled recently due to sales. Champions got cancelled too didn’t it? Hey if I’m wrong feel free to correct me but my impression is that it’s the main titles like ASM, Hulk, and now X-Men that have benefitted from this latest relaunch not the legacies.

Eh Not really, the article I provided was just an indication of his issues towards diversity. It had to take Kevin Feige to go up to the CEO of Marvel to finally get the diversity many have been requested for, and what happened? Billion Dollar Movies all over the place.
ANAD, while successful, was no where near the blow out success that movies like Black Panther and Captain Marvel was. ANAD didn't save marvel, it was just a financial success, which at the same time receive backlash from classic fans and comic book stores alike, he had no where near the leg to stand on.

With that said, I'm going to disagree with your statements, I definitely prefer both Wilson and especially Bendis work over Ahmeds. Though I did enjoy Ironheart. Champions is being rebooted with a new creative team after they become the focus of the upcoming event.
But the fact that these characters as well as characters like Spider Gwen, Valkyrie and more are having series to begin with clearly indicates the success ANAD has. Many people seem to forget, but before ANAD, Marvel couldn't produce a successful selling minority or woman solo series for a while, probably since like 2005 or so. And this doesn't even take into account their digital sales, which according to Marvel does better than expected and is largely why some series lower end physical copies keep going. (Again, I'm an all digital reader so I understand) DC STILL can't sell a minority solo series to save their life. This is the goal that their looking for, to have a series develop well enough to where they can do their own Into The Spider Verse and be good to go.
I mean look people were talking about having batman have his own into the spider verse, but what would you have? Bruce, Bruce, Bruce, and Thomas. At least with Superman, you have Kenan, Power Girl, Val Zod, etc. He fits closer to the picture Into The Spider Verse painted then Batman does.

There is no evidence presented here that would incriminate anyone of being a "complete racist". Racism and bigotry are serious allegations to make. I'm sure you are not tossing that around casually and that you have good evidence for it. Maybe for now we can set aside the topic until we can look at strong evidence so as to avoid derailing the thread.

Seeing as the article specifically indicates how Ike was holding back the development of movies like Black Panther and Captain Marvel, I'm going to disagree with you there. Do I believe he's a full blown racist? Not 100%, though others definitely are. But do I believe he's at least a bigot and against diversity? Most definitely. So I'm going to say we're going to have to agree to disagree in this scenario. You clearly won't see him in those terms and that's on you. But after seeing these articles, plus others that folks revealed regarding Ike and his stance on diversity, it definitely lines up to me.

[My Two Cents]

How did this get merged into a Marvel forum ?

[Frontier]

Was Marvel Legacy considered an initiative though? I presumed it was just a fancy banner to indicate how the Classic Heroes and Legacy Heroes was supposed to share the same world? And to be honest, Fresh Start was really when the classic heroes starting making their return. That's when Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America return to their mantle. If Marvel Legacy was considered a publishing initiative, then I'll change my stance to referring to both ANAD and Marvel Legacy. But I always presumed ANAD ran essentially from Secret Wars all the way to Fresh Start.

There was ANAD, Marvel Now 2, and then Legacy.

Now 2 was when the two new Iron Man's popped up.

Legacy was an initiative if only because every book had to have something referencing the past or an old story, down to covers homaging older Marvel covers.

Can I just mention I hate how they turned Thor into a mantle? Makes Shazam's name being his transformation phrase seem less ridiculous.

[vasir12]

There was ANAD, Marvel Now 2, and then Legacy.

Now 2 was when the two new Iron Man's popped up.

Legacy was an initiative if only because every book had to have something referencing the past or an old story, down to covers homaging older Marvel covers.

Can I just mention I hate how they turned Thor into a mantle? Makes Shazam's name being his transformation phrase seem less ridiculous.

The Thor was one definitely the most awkward change cause that is literally the dude's name. A more appropriate title to give is "God of Thunder" or something but I guess that wouldn't give Marvel what they wanted.

It's kinda why I don't see "Martian Manhunter" being taken cause... I never really saw it as a standard hero name. Another example would be Raven. That's just her name whereas Wonder Woman is a title that Diana won for herself.